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Post by casandra on Feb 27, 2011 11:58:31 GMT
When I know more about this period of early 1968, it is quite clear that they were against Jim about the most things he proposed for the new album. The “Jimbo victims” were the real guilties that he appeared sometimes.
I think I read sometime that John or Robby (I'm not sure who) once said that when Jim was alive, the three Doors were always against him, but after when he died they were fighting between themselves and therefore they had left the group, among other reasons. So some of their faults they have admited but very barely.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Mar 11, 2011 9:16:16 GMT
The Great Lost Doors Album Celebration Of The Lizard!
Mid March 1968 TTG Recording Studios Hollywood CA.
The Los Angeles Times mentions that The Doors plan to complete their third album by late April and one of the songs considered for inclusion is 'Gloria'. They also comment that their newest opus The Celebration Of The Lizard has gone from 23 to 36 minutes in length and may sprawl over both sides of thier fourth (not third) album. Apparently the distress signals for Celebration Of The Lizard are already being raised. From On The Road
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Mar 11, 2011 9:17:54 GMT
The Great Lost Doors Album Celebration Of The Lizard!
End of March 1968 TTG Recording Studios Hollywood CA.
After it becomes evident that they will not be able to redesign COTL in time to meet the required deadline for the third album The Doors begin searching through Jim Morrisons collection of tattered notebooks for any material from which they can construct new material.
This is a most interesting paragraph from On The Road. This gives you a glimpse of the divide between the two factions. Pay attention that they look through Jim's notebooks which are described as tattered. Why would that be?
Because the guy is indeed a true artist and he has thumbed through them endlessly working on his material. Not tattered as that insinuates that Jim did not care for their condition and Jim Morrison cared deeply for the words he wrote. Well worn would have been the better description
Not an ordered lifestyle for Jim but that of a poet and artist striving to achieve the poetical perfection which was the exact opposite of people like Ray and Paul who sought the ordered perfection of a perfect track rather than one that had that spark of heart and soul which differentiated from music that would be remembered and music that would turn a buck.
COTL had that heart whilst the likes of HILY did not.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Mar 11, 2011 11:49:22 GMT
1968 March: The Unknown Soldier/ We Could Be So Good Together US #39 1968 July: Hello I Love You/Love Street US #1; UK #15 Doors Single releasesThis is interesting ans serves as an example as to why so many things about The Doors get clouded with uncertainty. From Riders On The StormUnknown Soldier was released as the second single from our third album WFTS following the huge success of HILY. The prospects were not nearly as good because of the political nature of the song. I was proud of Jim's first obviously political statement and proud of the record company for having the courage to push it. I did not realise back then with Jim's dad an admiral in the navy that it was a direct challenge to dad. The lyrics weren't talking about Vietnam specifically but I thought were more powerful for their universal imagery. That was Jim's gift. Our 'anti war philippic' as Time magazine called it reached #24 on the national chart. Music people said we were lucky to get it played at all on the radio during those Vietnam years. Apparently we were one of the more popular groups in 'Nam.John Densmore p#165Unknown Soldier was released before HILY and was part of The Doors set in the later months of 1967. They had even made a short film to promote the song with. HILY was not even in the bands mind as even being a song for the COTL album and would not appear until after the collapse of the poetry LP. It shows that Doors History is best not taken from the comments of the actual members as their research into themselves is poor.
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Post by kristyob on Mar 31, 2011 17:43:11 GMT
My gut feeling tells me that Jim wanted to only have poetry and COTL on the album. Maybe they went along with it at first to humor him but then realized there was not enough music in the piece to sell it and went with a conventional album concept instead. It's interesting that Morrison refused to record My Wild Love without a banjo but didn't put up a bigger fight for COTL ?!
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Post by kristyob on Mar 31, 2011 20:19:07 GMT
An interesting interview done for Hullabaloo in 1968:
"Jim and Ray are talking. Jim: Let's talk to Paul (Rothchild, Doors Producer) about Texas Radio with a little blues accompaniment-
Ray: Yeah, but that's going to entail going in and setting up for a whole recording. I mean, it would be quick, but it wouldn't be that quick.
Jim: It would sound good just spoken, you know.
Ray: (flipping through a manila folder containing some of Jim's poems): Maybe we should do something else. A lot these things are good, too.
Jim: These are just the ones I was going to show Paul. These are songs that we could use for the next album. I think that if I do Texas Radio, it should all be read.
Q: What is your third album like?
Jim: It's.....just songs. There are no real long ones.
Q: Is it true that, at one point, you were going to use an entire side for a single song?
Jim: No we tried that, but it didn't work out. But we did use part of it. I think we're going to wait and do that later, maybe as part of a live album. Our new album is called Waiting For The Sun. We're thinking of adding something else to it."
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Mar 31, 2011 20:34:50 GMT
It's hard to get a handle on Jim's real feelings at the loss of COTL and neither can we discover what concessions were made to Jim with regards COTL by both the band and the producer. That little conversation is very interesting. Especially when you look at what WFTS ended up as. Jim seemed to still be trying to introduce poetry into The Doors albums. The snippets of poetry that were going to be inserted between songs on either WFTS or Soft Parade or both show how hard he tried. The poetry snippets must have been recorded as we see one prior to The Soft Parade title track on the 40 year remixes. What pressure the record company exerted on the band is also unknown and likely will never be known as The Doors are now a 'brand' rather than a band. We know Jim became belligerent and got drunk a lot at WFTS sessions but seemed to work hard at the COTL sessions. This tells us a lot as it indicates perhaps that Jim sought the oblivion of alcohol to soothe his disappointment and did his best to disrupt the session to show his discontent at what had happened. All we ever get from official sources is Jimbo did this and Jimbo did that but we never find out much about Why? By the time we got to TSP Jim knew his place and did not seem too happy as his song input had dried up and this would continue into the Morrison Hotel sessions with Robby seemingly brought in to shore up Morrison compositions. But by the time we got to LAW Jim was finding his second wind. Perhaps because he knew this was his Doors swansong. The Indecision of 1968 to 1970 replaced by a new confident bluesy Morrison. It's easy to blame Jim as he got drunk and behaved like an arce. But lets not forget there were three other guys in that group and a producer and a record company. Most of whom were expecting record sales and hit singles. Morrison was in a minority of one when he came to make COTL. He was doomed to failure before he even got started.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 1, 2011 8:52:50 GMT
‘The Doors were artistic and The Doors always had integrity’ adds Manzarek. ‘The Doors never sold out. We were in it for the art, for music, for poetry’ but he admits the current Doors resurgence has generated a windfall for the three band members ‘Well I’ll tell you it doesn’t hurt my pocketbook’ chuckles Manzarek. ‘It’s a Merry Christmas at the Manzarek household’. The Evening News Sunday Jan 18th 1981
This an interesting insight into Ray Manzarek from the first of four 10 year anniversaries of Jim Morrison's death. He conveniently forgets to mention that why The Doors may NOT have sold out three of it's members, including himself, did indeed sell out to Buick in 1968. The reason The Doors never sold out was Jim Morrison who stood up for songs he barely had a hand in. These comments fly in the face of the reality as his section of The Doors clearly chased the elusive hit single during 1968 and 1969 while the other faction, Jim Morrison, tried vainly to defend the art and the poetry until eventually giving up to his fate and what would constitute the 1970 shows. Where Jim barely altered the script and would seek solace in being drunk on stage rather than face his inevitable fate as a mere rock singer instead of an Electric Poet. These are the consequences of this Lost Album and the Buick affair which caused the night in Miami and the problems with TSP. We can only guess what The Doors would have been like if COTL had seen the light of day as an album. Instead The Doors lucked out with a cheery pop hit Hello I Love You which a 10 year old kid brought to their attention. They were not keen to revisit it but with Jac Holzman championing his sons suggestion The Doors fate was sealed. True it broke the band in Europe but it also broke the spirit of Jim Morrison who would play a bit part role in The Doors until his swansong LAW would show the rock world what could have been.
Morrison once told writer Lizzie James "The most important kind of freedom is to be what you really are. You trade in your reality for a role. You trade your senses for an act. You give up your ability to feel, and in exchange, put on a mask. There can't be any large-scale revolution until there's a personal revolution, on an individual level. It's got to happen inside first. You can take away a man's political freedom and you won't hurt him - unless you take away his freedom to feel. That can destroy him."
Fine words and a nutshell explanation to what The Doors did to Jim Morrison. They first took away his art, condemned him to being a pop star and then finally betrayed him to a car advert. The result was Morrison hid behind the mask ever more. The mask of a drunkard and a fool. Morrison was ultimately a man who felt too much and could not cope with the pain it brought him.
He once sat on a rooftop and dreamed a Bright Midnight but it ended up as a dank damp morning of a dream in which he had trapped himself because he had trusted others with that dream. They came to see only the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and were oblivious to the beauty of the rainbow itself.
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gizmo
Door Half Open
Posts: 113
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Post by gizmo on Apr 1, 2011 16:21:20 GMT
lol@ the doors never sold out we were in it for the art, for music, for poetry............. hmmmmmmm why is there something inside me saying BULLSHIT?
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 1, 2011 18:45:19 GMT
Strictly speaking Giz The Doors never did sell out. Densmore, Krieger and Manzarek sold out. Jim never did and as such the band kept it's integrity whilst the drummer, keyboard player and guitarist sold theirs for 70 grand.
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Post by jym on Apr 8, 2011 21:49:24 GMT
I don't know if 5 to 1 would have been on there. Jim only thought of it after getting pissed off that Celebration had been scrapped. It's a hard call because it would have been in the right tone of Celebration, a muscular song lyrically and musically.
In the novel "Glimpses" a guy goes back in time to get The Doors to create the Celebration of the Lizard album and here's the lineup posited: Side One Unknown Soldier Waiting for the Sun Summer's Almost Gone Wintertime Love My Wild Love Five to One
Side Two Celebration of the Lizard Crawling King Snake L'America
I brought this discussion up on Amazon a while ago, and here's a lineup that one of the other people came up with that I thought was good too. Side 1: Waiting for the Sun Summers Almost Gone Hello I Love You Love Street Yes, The River Knows Spanish Caravan Unknown Soldier Five to One
Side 2: Celebration of the Lizard
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 9, 2011 8:53:07 GMT
I brought this discussion up on Amazon a while ago, and here's a lineup that one of the other people came up with that I thought was good too. Side 1: Waiting for the Sun Summers Almost Gone Hello I Love You Love Street Yes, The River Knows Spanish Caravan Unknown Soldier Five to One Side 2: Celebration of the Lizard Problem with that one is HILY came about due to Adam Holzman aged 10 who put the idea forward to his dad after the COTL difficulty. The Doors did not want to do this and probably only did due to the vacuum created by COTL. It is unlikely had COTL worked that this would ever have been a Doors song other than on the demo. Obviously the band had revisited the demo as Go Insane was part of COTL but it's debatable as to whether this was simply as Jim had the song in mind as a part of COTL or whether he had looked at the demo and incorporated it into the poem. Summer's Almost gone is one of my fave Doors songs but that too may well have only come about after COTL failed. If COTL had been the new album it is possible that both Summer and Hello would not have seen the light of day. Waiting for the Sun is a choice I like as it was one of the songs that was lost in the chaos of the WFTS sessions. Paul Ferrara was involved in the music as was Robby . A very Ironic song in many ways as Morrison may well have waited but he waited in vain. Yes The River Knows, which is also a fave of mine, does not fit in with the theme COTL seemed to want to explore so for that reason I would discount it. Robby was left with the task of filling in for Jim after COTL as Morrison seemed to experience some kind of block. Krieger was left with the expectation of providing the hit element after WFTS and after HILY there were no real single releases of any consequence that contained a Morrison A Side until after he died.
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Post by kristyob on Apr 11, 2011 8:40:45 GMT
It would be interesting to know when and how Jim came up with COTL. As mentioned Go Insane was part of the demo and thus an early song. He has been quoted as saying that the first couple of songs he wrote were just notes from a vision of a full blown concert he had while on the rooftop. Could COTL be that fabled concert in it's entirety ?!
Also, this conversation brings up something that troubles me...Jim is always portrayed as a strong individual who followed his own path...yet there were many times he acquiesced to the will of others.... - COTL
- not staring in I, A Man because he was told it wouldn't be good for his image to appear nude (yet Warhol's films had a huge impact on him and it had to be a dream come true)
- singing the ridiculous lyrics of "Tell All The People".
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 11, 2011 9:14:12 GMT
I think a lot of Doors fans assume Jim was an extrovert because of his stage persona. But from what I have read and absorbed about him he seems to be very weak and insecure. The strong one was Manzarek who had the goal of fame and fortune from the off and ruthlessly pursued that. Jim was an artist and his goals different. He was shy and introverted because of his upbringing. Moving around all the time not being able to make close Friends as he would have never known when he would lose them. It is plain to see why he sought an escape in alcohol. In a lot of ways he is a rather sad character. The points you make show how unable he was to fight his corner and in many ways he was submissive to the band. At first it was out of respect for them as musicians but later it was anything for an easy life with him with regard to his dealings with The Doors. They often portray this 'monster' Jimbo riding roughshod over them but it was them that created this image to escape the scrutiny of their part in this sad drama. For me after realising his mates were not as into the art as he was Jim simply gave up. You can hear it in the live BMR discs if you compare them to the 67/68 bootlegs. Look at the change in the relationship after Buick. Jim sought solace away from The Doors with friends who were not 'them'! They retaliated by portraying this years later as Jimbo off on a drinking spree with people who were leading his astray and away from The Doors money making activities. The three Doors like to make us think they were poor innocent souls at the mercy of this crazed monster but I no longer believe such fairy tales. Morrison was always at a disadvantage as he was outnumbered. The Doors musical side like prison bars to Morrison from which he could not escape. Finally he managed to free himself but by then it was far too late. It would be interesting to know when and how Jim came up with COTL. As mentioned Go Insane was part of the demo and thus an early song. He has been quoted as saying that the first couple of songs he wrote were just notes from a vision of a full blown concert he had while on the rooftop. Could COTL be that fabled concert in it's entirety ?! Indeed yes, this is a very interesting question. It says on the WFTS album cover that COTL was 'lyrics to a theatre composition'. So what exactly did Jim envisage COTL to be? Was this something in his mind from the beginning? Sadly the only person who would know for sure has not spoken for 40 years.
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Post by kristyob on Apr 11, 2011 16:59:47 GMT
Jim, come back and tell us!!! ; )
You brought up some good points Alex. But I would like to offer somethings to ponder...
Yes, he did move around quite a bit...but in The Lizard King Was Here, Jeff Morehouse (I believe, sorry I don't have my book handy to reference) said that several of the military families moved around together, so there was some continuity in his life. Still, by the time he was a teenager it had to have gotten harder (i.e. leaving Fud Ford in Alameda, Tandy Martin in VA).
There is a lot of evidence that he was quiet and introspective. I like the stories on hollywoodhangover.com and Juddy Huddleston's book. They corroborate this side of his personality.
Recently I read Paul Ferrara's book and it was interesting to learn that HWY came about because Jim was unsure he had what it took to be an actor and it was a way to practice and do a screen test. In the book Frank points out many examples of Jim being unsure about things, but then he says that he had confidence unlike anyone else he had ever met. Also Jim's confidence and presence was something that made John Densmore really uncomfortable (he hated being in his shadow, that much is clear from John's book).
I guess like anyone, Jim was a bunch of contridictions.
But I really don't see his drinking as purely an escape. As someone who has alcoholics in my family, I know it becomes a real physical need superseding and emotional need. Alcoholics have low seratonin and that can make it difficult to deal with any conflict.
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Post by kristyob on Apr 11, 2011 17:01:00 GMT
* Paul points out (not Frank)....need a stiff coffee this morning !!!
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gizmo
Door Half Open
Posts: 113
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Post by gizmo on Apr 13, 2011 17:20:29 GMT
i think that cotl evolved the same as the end, short poems in one epic piece of music. the end became one song with not to much variation in music, but i think that the poems where easier to find or make to the music, while a lot of the lyrics are improvised on stage and became the end as we know it(though live versions are always different) cotl is a very difficult piece of music coz of the different pieces of music in it and the problem of couting in each piece so they'd all start together, it would sound shit if you'd hear a few ticks at each part of music and so i think that cotl was jim's poetry challenge, to combine real poetry into music (other songs have poetry rhymes in it to make it sound good(COZ PPL SEEM TO LIKE WORDS THAT RHYME IN SONGS) and clearing the path for him as a poet)
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 14, 2011 8:45:26 GMT
Indeed it was a challenge but surely that is at the heart of being an artist. I am sure Michaelangelo did not turn up one morning at the Sistine Chapel and look up and say 'piece of piss. Have it done in a week'. This is what Jim Morrison lived for and the misrepresentation of this period that The Doors perpetrate is extremely unfair. They always note Jim was disruptive of the WFTS sessions but never explain that he worked very hard on the COTL album sessions. Perhaps if they themselves had tried harder to make it work things would not have gotten so bad. Doors fans only ever get the side of those left alive. We can never know how many hours Jim put into COTL when he was not in the presence of The Doors. They assume he was off somewhere drunk with his freak friends. People like Ray Manzarek makes up lurid stories in his book about Jim and various characters that he blames for trying to destroy The Doors. The problem being that both he and Jim had very different ideas about what The Doors were. Ray's idea is clear. Read LMF his book and you will see Ray Manzarek's vision of The Doors. This goes some way to explain why COTL was more of a threat to Manzarek's Doors than an artistic challenge. Elektra too were searching for the elusive 'hit'. LMF was their first ever #1 single. They wanted more of the same. The evidence of Jim's tardiness and disruptive drinking seems damning if taken at first glance. But think a bit about it and try to discover the information that falls between the cracks of Manzarek type stories of the rampaging Jimbo and you can begin to see a different tale. Jim Morrison tried hard to make COTL work. The Doors gave it their attention but did not see it as a priority so when they had expended a couple of weeks on it told Jim it didn't work.
How much this affected Jim we cannot know. We know he sank into an alcoholic's despair as he turned up drunk for WFTS sessions. We know he tried to have poetry included between the songs. This did not happen either. We know a song that the whole band did not want to revisit became the albums #1 hit and broke the band in Europe. Jim Morrison's dream of a poetic Doors was shattered. Ray Manzarek's dream of a 'hit's band prevailed.
Later Morrison discovered how much Ray's dream had won the day when he discovered the three Doors had sold LMF to a car company for 70 grand.
1970 was the poorest Doors year in terms of live work as a dull structured set more often than not was the order of the day. Gone were the grand theatrical performances of 1966/67 and even 1968.
In the studio they produced two fragmented albums WFTS and TSP which seemed to be desperately searching for direction. Eventually settling for the blues as Morrison the great poetical dreamer was gone now and all that remained was a shell.
The fact that the band finished with one of their strongest ever albums a testimony to how good the four could be when they worked together. The reasons whey LAW worked can be seen in the ending of their relationship with producer Paul Rothchild, retreating into the comfort of The Doors office and Jim Morrison wishing to make a testimonial for his last Doors album as he had finally decided to quit the band for good.
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Post by kristyob on Apr 16, 2011 10:54:18 GMT
I agree with almost everything you said Alex except for this "Morrison the great poetical dreamer was gone now and all that remained was a shell". He may have been gone from the Doors world but he certainly was alive and well in Jim's personal endeavors. This was the most creative time for him...poetry books, screenplays, film festivals, poetry recordings...he channeled his energy into a world in which he had control.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 16, 2011 12:43:49 GMT
Forgive my inelegance with that comment. I was referring to him as a Door with that not saying he gave up on poetry altogether. My words alluded to his stage performances which were stilted and mundane compared to the years 66/67/68. It seemed as if he lost interest and resigned himself to his lot.
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