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Post by kristyob on Apr 22, 2011 4:46:00 GMT
Ah yes, forgive me for misunderstanding. You are absolutely right! But the miraculous thing is how he was ever able to perform brilliantly sometimes while loaded to the gills!!! I don't know how any musicians do...
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Post by casandra on Apr 22, 2011 8:19:47 GMT
I don’t believe Jim perfomed brillantly sometimes when he was stoned or drunk. I think this is for the most part a legend, Morrison mythology.
The interesting thing is you never know for sure if he was sober or not. I think many times he exaggerated his role and seeming he was high was part of the character he represented on stage or even in front of journalists. I guess Bob Neuwirth spoke about this.
“I wonder why people like to believe I'm high all the time. I guess maybe they think someone else can take their trip for them” Jim Morrison
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 22, 2011 8:49:30 GMT
I think many times he exaggerated his role and seeming he was high was part of the character he represented on stage or even in front of journalists. A very good point indeed. Miami is a good example of this phenomena. To this day people still debate how drunk Jim was that night. One of the misconceptions about Morrison came about with the way he answered questions. He would take his time to answer because he liked to think about the question for a moment and answer it with intelligence rather than the way Ray answers questions by just opening his mouth. People saw this as evidence of drink or drugs. I admit I did just that in the early days of being a Doors fan. Morrison did get drunk on stage. That is undeniable but the legends grew even as Jim was still alive. After he died they went into the stratosphere with their tales of excess.
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Post by casandra on Apr 22, 2011 9:58:25 GMT
One of the misconceptions about Morrison came about with the way he answered questions. He would take his time to answer because he liked to think about the question for a moment and answer it with intelligence rather than the way Ray answers questions by just opening his mouth. Exactly, Alex. When I first saw the movie The Doors Are Open, when I saw Jim interviewed by journalists, I thought: “this guy is very quiet and slow, he likes to think before answering”. Never crossed my mind the thought that day he was drunk or got high. I thought he had the accent or intonation so weary and slow of talking that I believe the people in South of United States speak. I am not sure if it was like that, but it is what seems to me. Here, the people in North speak more nervous and sharp and the Southern people speak slow and lilting, but this don't mean that they are drunk or on drugs.
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Post by kristyob on Apr 25, 2011 17:24:16 GMT
Good points! I was thinking of the Hollywood Bowl. It was noted that he dropped acid beforehand and you can see that he is a bit out of it (especially when he focuses on the moth on the stage. Anyone who's taken acid knows you focus on things intently. not that I would know or anything *ahem*). For me, just remembering the lyrics while high is brilliant and a feat that seems near impossible!!
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Post by casandra on Apr 25, 2011 19:22:11 GMT
I think at Hollywood Bowl Jim was very focused to sing well and that everything went well because the concert was being filmed. So he was concentrated and more distant, the others interpreted it as he had taken acid. If he was on acid that day, he didn’t take enough to lose the control of his mind. The moth is a joke that he thought for introduce the "Ode to the grasshopper", and so this seemed an improvisation.
If he had taken acid or had been drunk that day he could not be able to remember sometimes the lyrics. He would have been some mistakes, and that day I believe that he had special care for singing. That made him to lose spontaneity.
If you compares with the concert in Boston in 1970, I think it is clear he loses the rhythm and he loses his voice sometimes and forgets the lyrics or sings badly. Although he was funny, frankly I guess that day was not his best performance.
Morrison Lament on Jimi Hendrix bootleg is absolutely terribly. I think that day he was very, very drunk.
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Post by kristyob on Apr 26, 2011 16:03:47 GMT
Ok, yes...Morrison's Lament WAS terrible.
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adam
Door Half Open
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Post by adam on Apr 26, 2011 21:29:30 GMT
i'm gonna get flammed for this....
but COTL isn't a very good song or poem... sorry.
when i hear it, to me it's the first time that lyrically jim is living inside himself...
the early (& later) lyrics are so universal, so applicable to anyone listening... they are like Blake poems, (to me) they are morrison teaching the world about heaven in a wild flower / infinity in a hour
COTL seems so self indulgent.... sections of it exist in 67 bootlegs, but it seems to have evolved over time... the words appear to take the listener to the very moment that jim lives in a motel room, famous & bored.
i don't criticize jim for the story of his life, i just see how it can't be condensed into a single song, even a long one
in the final analysis rothchild was WRONG to deny the artist the chance to record what he wanted, he was wrong to push away COTL
but IMHO COTL was never going to work to music
like i said, sorry.
================footnote==============
i suspect the 3 doors only let jim play it live too
a) shut him up about it in the studio b) to say "hey jim look how they booo'd all thru COTL & asked for LMF, i told you we shouldn't have recorded it, hey man we love it, but rothchild & the kids they think its shit, you heard the audience yourself..."
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adam
Door Half Open
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Post by adam on Apr 26, 2011 21:39:24 GMT
Good points! I was thinking of the Hollywood Bowl. It was noted that he dropped acid beforehand and you can see that he is a bit out of it (especially when he focuses on the moth on the stage. Anyone who's taken acid knows you focus on things intently. not that I would know or anything *ahem*). For me, just remembering the lyrics while high is brilliant and a feat that seems near impossible!! yes totally, i remember this one time, y'know when you get home as dad's getting up so we're sitting there in the lounge, i'm uneasy in that kinda "i'm full of acid & my Dad's here" sorta way & he's uneasy in a "what the fuck is my son on & should i mention it" sorta way so we're sitting there & suddenly i see this HUGE bug on the floor like WHOA WHAT'S THAT & so i get up to investigate & of course there's nothing there... i remember looking at my Dad looking at me & i swear to god the voice in my head actually said ''uh-oh i blew it, it's a moth" (it actually turned out to be a piece of mud, but i didn't know this until later) which got me thinking healthy human biology is all pretty much a muchness, ok so rock stars get a lot of practice at inebriation tolerance, but high is high, drunk is drunk. just how high/drunk could jim have actually been to even be able to perform? (as Kristy says to even remember the lyrics) probably a LOT less than myth would have you believe.....
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 26, 2011 22:36:21 GMT
i'm gonna get flammed for this.... but COTL isn't a very good song or poem... sorry. when i hear it, to me it's the first time that lyrically jim is living inside himself... the early (& later) lyrics are so universal, so applicable to anyone listening... they are like Blake poems, (to me) they are morrison teaching the world about heaven in a wild flower / infinity in a hour COTL seems so self indulgent.... sections of it exist in 67 bootlegs, but it seems to have evolved over time... the words appear to take the listener to the very moment that jim lives in a motel room, famous & bored.
i don't criticize jim for the story of his life, i just see how it can't be condensed into a single song, even a long one
in the final analysis rothchild was WRONG to deny the artist the chance to record what he wanted, he was wrong to push away COTL
but IMHO COTL was never going to work to music
like i said, sorry.
================footnote==============
i suspect the 3 doors only let jim play it live too
a) shut him up about it in the studio b) to say "hey jim look how they booo'd all thru COTL & asked for LMF, i told you we shouldn't have recorded it, hey man we love it, but rothchild & the kids they think its shit, you heard the audience yourself..."
Don't see why you should be attacked for an opinion mate To some degree I agree with what you say. A lot of what Jim wrote was not that great. But COTL has to be taken as a whole and the music and poetry/lyric blend together well in both the demo and live versions. The argument is not whether it was good or not but that it was not given more than a few days to try to work it up. When you consider what replaced it then throwing brickbats at COTL's shortcomings does seem a little trite. Both WFTS and TSP are hardly at the pinnacle of art and very wishy washy albums that seemed to be searching for a direction. The point about COTL was Jim wanted to take The Doors in the direction of poetry and forces seemed to be against his idea. As I said before here who knows what TSP would have sounded like if COTL had been the 3rd album not WFTS. Hell mate you know damn fine I love WFTS and TSP but the idea of an artistic concept driving The Doors in the direction of art is intriguing regardless of the points you make about it. I am a big fan of COTL and have been since about 1972 when I first got the live LP. The lyrics are not of any great importance as like The End it's the imagery that the individual picks up that makes the song important. All the Doors epic album tracks The End, WTMO and The Soft Parade song/poem all have this element to them. TSP is a ridiculous lyric but it sets off all sorts of images in the mind if you sit quietly and let it flow. That for me is a power The Doors have in spades. The reasons for COTL's failure are complex but the points we have made here would seem valid considering what happened after COTL failed. I agree that the Doors audience did not exactly fall over themselves to applaud when COTL was played but then that audience was a different audience to those who attended the clubs. I can relate to that, as I am sure you can, having seen bands like Iron Maiden and Def Leppard in small clubs before they released an album and then when they became more mainstream. The audience is different. I do disagree that COTL would not have worked musically as the band made TSP work and that was as complex. Did the musical side have the will to make it work? That is the question.
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gizmo
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Post by gizmo on Apr 27, 2011 14:52:57 GMT
Good points! I was thinking of the Hollywood Bowl. It was noted that he dropped acid beforehand and you can see that he is a bit out of it (especially when he focuses on the moth on the stage. Anyone who's taken acid knows you focus on things intently. not that I would know or anything *ahem*). For me, just remembering the lyrics while high is brilliant and a feat that seems near impossible!! yes totally, i remember this one time, y'know when you get home as dad's getting up so we're sitting there in the lounge, i'm uneasy in that kinda "i'm full of acid & my Dad's here" sorta way & he's uneasy in a "what the fuck is my son on & should i mention it" sorta way so we're sitting there & suddenly i see this HUGE bug on the floor like WHOA WHAT'S THAT & so i get up to investigate & of course there's nothing there... i remember looking at my Dad looking at me & i swear to god the voice in my head actually said ''uh-oh i blew it, it's a moth" (it actually turned out to be a piece of mud, but i didn't know this until later) which got me thinking healthy human biology is all pretty much a muchness, ok so rock stars get a lot of practice at inebriation tolerance, but high is high, drunk is drunk. just how high/drunk could jim have actually been to even be able to perform? (as Kristy says to even remember the lyrics) probably a LOT less than myth would have you believe..... the legend is always better than the real person
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gizmo
Door Half Open
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Post by gizmo on Apr 27, 2011 15:01:10 GMT
Ah yes, forgive me for misunderstanding. You are absolutely right! But the miraculous thing is how he was ever able to perform brilliantly sometimes while loaded to the gills!!! I don't know how any musicians do... playing music when y´re shitfaced is easy if you know what to play (or sing). it goes automaticly and you could get bored easely. it's just like working in a factory but the co-workers are changing each day, but each night you play you'll do the same show (trick) with small bits changed but most of the shows are the same, so to make it intresting for the artist he'll use some drugs or alcohol.
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Post by kristyob on Apr 27, 2011 16:17:43 GMT
I'm glad you expressed your opinion Adz...I always like to look at things from another perspective.
To me it's cool because it was something rarely done in rock, the singer asking you to suspend your disbelief and go along on the journey for an extended period of time. I love Not to Touch the Earth and the different melodies used in the piece. Some of the lyrics are crappy but I'm with Alex...it had potential and should have been given a chance in the studio.
I also like how theatrical Morrison gets when he performs it. It's still a shock to the system when he screams 'wake up'.
and I'll be honest, a big part of me likes it because we finally got to hear it after all the talk and build-up for years about the mysterious aborted album concept.
In regards to playing sober/straight...I bow to those more knowledgable about such things ; )
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gizmo
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Post by gizmo on Oct 2, 2011 22:58:38 GMT
i think it's a bit strange to put the unknown soldier as 1st track on the b side. it's a good song but to long to open the b side, five to one would be a better opener but, on the other hand is the contrast between side a and b to big so that makes my wild love the opening for side b my wild love spanish caravan gloria five to one the unknown soldier
that would have had a great impact, starting quitly and going to an end wich gets harder by each song and closing like the end did on the first album
just my opinion but .................
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Nov 30, 2011 12:00:30 GMT
They had deadlines to meet after COTL was dumped so probably did not put that much thought into the track listing. The two powerful songs on the album were both Jim's but he had been disillusioned by the loss of his poetry project. But of course Elektra got an album of tunes they could sell to the public. The whole album is disjointed and searching for a direction, not finding any. It's a mess but I love it all the same.
I don't think there is any doubt COTL was seen with horror by Elektra who must have put pressure on Rothchild and then too The Doors. To believe a man like Rothchild who would do 100 takes of a bit of drumming would give up on COTL so quick is frankly daft.
Concepts were not a big deal in 1968 and would not come into their own till the 70s. Elektra was a progressive label but had just had two of the biggest selling albums ever from The Doors. Jim's idea was too risky for them I believe and as such was undermined until it collapsed.
Morrison must have been devastated artistically after the work he put into it.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jan 3, 2012 14:31:10 GMT
So was Morrison's Magnum opus sacrificed on the altar of commercialism? Any of you lot got a view about any of this. We can only guess what COTL would have ended up like if the band had given it as much chance as they gave The Soft Parade album. It's really strange that a producer who would spend weeks getting a couple of cymbal hits right would not have given COTL more of his time. The lies told about this period by The Doors and their entourage really annoying as Jim has no chance to reply. But we do know Morrison tried hard to make it work whilst the band, production team and perhaps the record company were not as enthusiastic as Morrison. The piece began on March 19th and was dumped 5 weeks later to meet some deadline Elektra had for the album. But this sounds fishy as no such deadline was given for the TSP album which became a monstrous struggle to satisfy their mad producers drive to emulate the Beatles. There is a lot talked about how disruptive Morrison was in the studio but much of this occurred after COTL was shelved. The LA Times reported that COTL was now 36 minutes long and would perhaps be part of the fourth album not the third. We know now that it was simply forgotten in favour of Rothchild's monster TSP. To me the obvious answer is Elektra were concerned that no 'hit' would be available on such a ground breaking concept album and they along with the band and producer went out of their way to ensure Morrison's dream was never realised. As a result Jim Morrison became disillusioned and decided to become a pain in the arce as payback. The Doors never again existed as the four sided diamond we hear so much about. So what do you bleeders think?
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jan 3, 2012 21:56:22 GMT
See also the Richard Goldstein Article which paints a familiar picture of Jim the nuisance from 1969 by which time Jim was damned if he did and damned if he didn't in the American audiences eyes. Waiting For The Sun Songbook 1969
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Post by casandra on Jan 4, 2012 19:16:16 GMT
I already said some points in this discussion. I hope someone else dares to say something. These days I’m re-reading "Follow the music" and I get the feeling that everyone was pretty unhinged, not only Morrison, in the spring of 1968. They were all overwhelmed by too much success so sudden. Jac Holzman, for example, suffered a sort of nervous breakdown at that time and he needed to take several weeks of vacation to try to calm down himself. JACK HOLMAN: By the spring of 1968 I felt disillusioned, unable to articulate the problem, but knowing in my gut that I was at a profound dis-ease with myself and the company I had created. There comes a point when you are no longer in control. Instead of riding the tiger, the tiger rides you. Elektra was getting away from me, and my reaction was to get away from it, to escape an organization in which I found my influence waning. So I said to Nina, "I don't want to do this any more. Why don't you try it for a while?"
NINA HOLZMAN: Looking back, I think Jac was probably having a nervous breakdown. He had worked so hard and in such a concentrated way for so many years, and he didn't know how to relax. That was not in his repertoire at all. So he just drove himself unmercifully, and took on all this responsibility, and he just broke. He was totally and completely emotionally burned out.ftm.app90.com/chapter-16
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Post by aztecadoors on Aug 29, 2012 1:29:21 GMT
COTL would have been the quintisensial Doors album.....what pisses me off that, Jim's masterpiece wasnt given its due. Rothchild, and the other Doors nixed it. Its no wonder that Jim rebeled aganist the other Doors....i mean fuck isnt TSP title track so uncomplex too it's no wonder Jim got dissalusioned. The Doors were just lazy...thats why WFTS is such a POS record....Love St, Wintertime Love, Yes the River knows,......wtf ...crappy ass titles for songs....even the music sounds stale with the exception of 5 to 1, Unknown Solider, Hello I Love You and Spanish Caravan...this would have made up at least side one of the album. And Side 2 would have been COTL. I made my own by putting this and the Studio version of COTL as a CD. IMO The Doors should go back use Jim's Vocals re-record COTL and give it it's just due....The 1968 LA Forum show and the 1970 Felt forum versions are fuckin brillant.....the Doors dissapointed themselves and they even know it....
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Aug 29, 2012 9:05:38 GMT
We make some points here as to why COTL never saw the light of day as an album. I firmly believe it was scuppered due to not being commercially viable. I am not in favour of those three redoing COTL with Jim's vocals though. These people are NOT The Doors anymore just three people who used to be The Doors. Their greed and hypocrisy has begun to come to light this last decade or so.
When you look at the timeline of the COTL album and the amount of time spent on it and TSP album which was done as Rothchilds attempt to emulate The Beatles it is clear something is not quite right. The album that could have been and the album that was shows the chasm that was emerging between Jim and Ray, John and Robby. later that year those three sold Jim down the river to Buick and the rest was History although The Doors went to a lot of trouble to blame Morrison and keep their part in it all as far away from prying eyes as possible. If not for them suing each other we might still be in the dark as to the character of the three musical Doors.
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