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Post by kristyob on May 5, 2011 18:36:36 GMT
Interesting (plus a really cool photo)! Thanks for posting!
So maybe Jim wasn't opposed to advertising per say but was more upset in regards to the LMF commercial because the decision had been made without him. If he had let it go, more and more decisions would have been made without him....
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 5, 2011 20:25:05 GMT
So maybe Jim wasn't opposed to advertising per say but was more upset in regards to the LMF commercial because the decision had been made without him. If he had let it go, more and more decisions would have been made without him.... It's an argument I used against that idiot Jampol on the Densmore forum. The difference between a promotion and an endorsement. I think the programme ad is one of those grey areas that come up in the real world. Promotion or endorsement as such? Probably a bit of both and none of either. They had a tie in with an amp company and Jim was happy to stand next to one of Vince's cabinets. They were quite an acheivement at that time. Maybe it's a measure of Jim's pride at what Vince had done for The Doors. I think it's clear he was proud of his band at this time. Feast Of Friends was being filmed at this time and Jim was enthusiastic about live work. I think he made it clear that Buick did not upset him because he wasn't asked. Jim Morrison supported several music related things that could be called endorsments. R adio stations and magazines like Cheetah but an amp company would not be quite the same as a car company. This was part of Jim's musical world. It's easy to read too much into something like this. And again it is perfectly valid to come to that conclusion also. Which is why it is a grey area. Robby used Gibson guitars, Ray a Vox organ, John Ludwig drums. It's all part of the tools a craftsman uses.
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Post by kristyob on May 5, 2011 22:17:35 GMT
Maybe the songs were sacred to him but his image, not so much...
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 6, 2011 9:00:59 GMT
Maybe the songs were sacred to him but his image, not so much... From my time learning about this guy it seems to me that he took his art extremely serious. Which is why he defended LMF even though he had minimal input in the song and music. He was appalled to see it being used to sell cars. We know from Jac that an advert was made so the story is a lot different to the one The Doors tell. They tell a lot of lies about this and use a drunken absent Jim to cover up their duplicity. Morrison was the creator of his own Monster of an image. It is an example of how naive he could be sometimes. He thought he could control what was thought and said about him. He studied ways of doing exactly that with many of the books he read. He was studying crowd behavior at school. He thought that he could create The Lizard King and control it. He realised his mistake and did his best to kill The Lizard King. Miami was his big chance but instead he just made it stronger. It's the Frankenstein analogy I used elsewhere. He used the media to promote his image and give The Doors a boost. He went into it with both eyes open and it was one of his biggest mistakes. He was young and naive and thought that he would be the Master but instead found he was in fact the Servant.
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Post by kristyob on May 6, 2011 18:23:50 GMT
But how can you really know what fame and being in the public eye will do until it happens ? Yes, he was young and naive.
Control WAS very important to him...he was often quoted as saying that he couldn't be hypnotized. But it's also interesting to note that the best performances and his strenght as a performer came from his ablility to 'lose control' while on stage.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 7, 2011 9:15:50 GMT
What I find fascinating about Jim the performer was his ability to 'lose control completely' whilst retaining control absolutely. A very unique ability for a frontman in a rock group. Obviously after the problems 68 brought the alcohol became a major factor and this unique ability pretty much deserted him.
I find it sad that the BMR library only shows Jim after he had lost this ability and there are few examples of how unique this guy was as a lead singer in a rock group because he was much more than simply that.
Those that saw The Doors before 68 saw something amazing on stage. I can understand why Ray used to say shamanistic as a description but back then he was right. It's the way he uses that to peddle his tripe after Jim's death that annoy me. But in the day Ray was right in a lot of respects as Morrison could lose himself completely in a performance. To him it was not even a performance as it was reality to him. Ray once said that the difference between all the rest and Jim on stage was that Jim was 'real'. It took a lot of years for me to really understand what Ray meant but he was spot on. Morrison was far from your average stage performer and more akin to the poets in the anceient times. He really meant it unlike someone like Jagger who was just an act.
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Post by kristyob on May 9, 2011 18:39:29 GMT
In your opinion what pre-68 show captures Jim as you describe him best. I have often read incredible reviews about how the audience was really impacted and wish one of those shows was captured on film. But then again maybe something like that you just really need to experience firsthand. That to me was his whole point....
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 9, 2011 19:19:45 GMT
Sadly as far as audio is concerned there is very little to go on. Danbury High School is an exciting show. And there are snippets from some of the 67 California shows such as Winterland and Continental Ballroom that give a feel to the band. Even The Matrix gives an insight into that something extra even if it was a low key gig. It's more in the written reports of the shows that you get this feel. Once we got into 68 the magic seemed to dissipate. We are discussing here some of the reasons for this. Houston 68 is something special audio wise as are the European shows.
I think the band got a second wind with Europe as the audiences there were more receptive as the baggage of The Doors was not a factor here in Europe. But the US audiences began to bore Morrison as they were constantly there for the hits rather than the art.
By the end of 68 it was pretty much all over for The Doors of 66/67 and the newer bluesy version was in full swing. The sets were more defined and ordered as opposed to the chaos of the 66/67 and some of the 68 shows.
The more success came there way the weaker the band became as a live act. The small venues were ideal for the band. The larger venues sucked the energy from the band and Morrison drank to assuage his boredom of the large halls and stadia.
For me The Doors peaked in 67 and it was downhill from there.
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Post by casandra on May 10, 2011 18:30:13 GMT
I think that in 1967 the group could experiment more during the performances. The audiences were smaller and more responsive, and they did not know the most of the songs. That allowed Jim to improvise and taste to the audiences, having more interaction with them and seeing their reactions.
I think in Jerry Hopkins interview Jim said that in a small club he was obliged to do good because he could perceive the audience's feelings.
This early audiences preferred to listen rather than fun, or just have fun. I think that also happened during the European tour.
After the success and the stadiums, the scope for improvisations were less, because the audience expected to hear the hits and the Doors were forced to play the hits. And the audiences were looking for spectacle and entertainment, more than music. That forced Jim to exaggerate, for capturing audience attention, because if not, the people on the last rows would hear or see nothing. So the concerts seem to lose the magic of earlier times.
At 1970 concerts are more clear that Jim was tired of singing the same songs and I think he was tired of always seeing the same reactions from the audience.
Normally the concerts had little light and it only lit up to Jim, who was the center of attention. The other three remained behind and, except Robbie Krieger, that he was wandering around the stage, lost in his world, the other two remained seated behind their instruments, thus they could provide little entertainment, except the musical fun.
In other musical groups there are one or two guitarists and a bass, in addition to the singer, with which attention is scattered among several people. However, the Doors were a peculiar group, and only the singer could provide the entertainment. It's more a group made to perform at a club, a small stage than for a large stadium.
The responsibility of a good show fell on Jim. This is quite unfair because a good or bad show depended on whether he had a good or bad day.
Anyway this is very relative, that depends, because every one of us can have different perceptions about the concerts. Some people like more the entertainment and someone like more the musical aspects. For example, I like Denmark Television performance and in that performance, Jim was sit on a chair most of the time, but I think Jim had a great energy, power and a powerful voice that I find it fascinating. However, other people may consider this performance boring because he was moving very little.
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Post by kristyob on May 10, 2011 20:42:43 GMT
Good points everyone. Yesd, Danbury has always been my favorite!
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patdmelt
Peeking through The Door
Posts: 14
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Post by patdmelt on May 11, 2011 23:14:35 GMT
After reading alot of the books about Doors, its cool to hear the later interviews of Jim like Fong torres and the oct 70. You hear a guy thats been there done that. His respect for music still there obviously with La woman. As a comic when you do the road in middle america they don't get it. Thats when the doors go to the big citys like nyc and play celebration and everyone loves it. They were inventing (as was hendrix) this new way to play BIG shows for alot of money. Jim lived in a fleabag motel half the time.So money was not the issue. I'm a big fan of the later doors Morrison Hotel was my fav. I would of loved to see the Bakersfield gig or chicago 70..These books are pretty much the same stuff over and over. I think Densmore said it best Jim had some serious problems and Ray is out there like the apostle John speading the word of Jim all for $$$. Ive become friends with a younger relative of Jim and she say the same.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 12, 2011 8:28:53 GMT
I would not say COTL was loved by audiences as often Jim seemed to play it for them as some kind of punishment. Perhaps that is going a tad too far but it is not received that well if the live BMR gigs and the boots are anything to go by.
His respect for the music or art of The Doors never waned simply he got tired of the consequences of being a rock star.
I don't think any of the surviving Doors John included are immune from milking Morrison for profit. Manzarek is the worst it's true but even JD has had his moments.
Ray indeed was looking to expand The Doors performances. His ideas for the Hollywood Bowl show he had big performance ideas but Morrison was not interested in that kind of thing as his comment 'you guys do what you want. Just give me a mike.'
It's true that 1970 did have some highlights and parts of Chicago and Bakersfield as you rightly point out are something special as well as one or two other decent to good gigs. But there was a general malaise that affected Morrison after the Miami events which can be traced back to the beginning of 1968. It depended more on Morrison's mood and how much he had drunk as to what kind of show you got in 1970. Doors spontineity was still there in 1970 at some gigs but the 1967 Doors were long gone by then. Boston was poor as was Seattle but Detroit was a very good gig and Jim was certainly worse for wear.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 12, 2011 20:21:07 GMT
I posted the Doug Cameron interview on both the Fanzine section and here in the book section so it could stand on its own as a topic and add to this topic.
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Post by kristyob on May 12, 2011 20:53:35 GMT
The comment about the nightclub called Albatross made me laugh. Jim had a great sarcastic sense of humor!
Btw, I asked Paul about the strangling incident...he had no knowledge of it.
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Post by glasstecwindows on Oct 30, 2018 12:11:09 GMT
This looks interesting, I love it.
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Post by glasstecwindows on Nov 10, 2018 5:04:49 GMT
I remember some of his posts were pulled very quickly bcoz they caused controversy with the Doors, but I never got a chance to read them before that happened.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Mar 30, 2024 11:27:54 GMT
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Mar 31, 2024 11:11:17 GMT
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 7, 2024 18:07:11 GMT
The most incendiary sentences in any Doors/Jim books anywhere. And he does not follow it up?
Unless he did and can't say anything as he was sworn to secrecy. Which is insane as he puts it in his book.
New York gives us a clue. Felt Forum?? Could it have been part of the Miami fallout and Ray opened his mouth a bit too wide? All 4 of them in a car is unusual as Jim liked to make his own way to gigs.
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zaval80
Peeking through The Door
Posts: 22
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Post by zaval80 on Apr 11, 2024 20:58:28 GMT
The Woodstock fallout in the wake of the Miami one, probably. Robby either says that they weren't invited to Woodstock or, like in his book, that it was down to Ray ("we all gave him flak after the movie came out"). And John said in his book that prominent rock business folks (Jac Holzman, Bill Graham, Bill Siddons) advised them to take part, but Jim had no wish to perform in the open air, supposedly because of bad acoustics. It could be Ray reminding him of this when they were in NY. Or, Ray mentioning $$$ advanced to Jim by the band for Pam's boutique and for the HWY team as per Ray's book (Ray kept schtum there on the Woodstock, totally, BTW, but not on the question of $$$). Whatever the reason, it was all down to $$$. How NY is connected to The Doors not participating in Woodstock, one would ask? Weeeelll...there are two key sources, one is on this site, a Cash Box article from 1969. And another one is PKM book. What would bring The Doors, an LA band, to NY in a couple of weeks after Woodstock? A no-brainer, really, but let's not spoil the suspense, answers via PM only, please
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