ODE TO L.A. While Thinking of Brian Jones, Deceased

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

Jim printed copies of this poem and gave them away to friends and fans alike at concerts.
Ironic that Jones dies on the same day as Jim would two years later and in water just like Jim.....makes ya think.....


ODE TO L.A. (WHILE THINKING OF BRIAN JONES)


I'm a resident of a city
They've just picked me to play
the Prince of Denmark

Poor Ophelia

All those ghosts he never saw
Floating to doom
On an iron candle

Come back, brave warrior
Do the dive
On another channel

Hot buttered pool
Where's Marrakesh
Under the falls
the wild storm
where savages fell out
in late afternoon
monsters of rhythm

You've left your
Nothing
to compete w/
Silence

I hope you went out
Smiling
Like a child
Into the cool remnant
of a dream

The angel man
w/ Serpents competing
for his palms
& fingers
Finally claimed
This benevolent
Soul

Ophelia

Leaves, sodden
in silk

Chlorine
dream
mad stifled
Witness

The diving board, the plunge
The pool

You were a fighter
a damask musky muse

You were the bleached
Sun
for TV afternoon

horned­toads
maverick of a yellow spot

Look now to where it's got
You

in meat heaven
w/ the cannibals
& jews

The gardener
Found
The body, rampant, Floating

Lucky Stiff
What is this green pale stuff
You're made of

Poke holes in the goddess
Skin

Will he Stink
Carried heavenward
Thru the halls
of music

No Chance.

Requiem for a heavy
That smile
That porky satyr's
leer
has leaped upward

into the loam
[/b][/font]

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

"Jim Morrison's recent poetic remembrance, "Ode to L.A. While Thinking of Brian Jones-Deceased" is distributed at each of the Aquarius shows at his own expense. Brian Jones, a pivotal member of the Rolling Stones, drowned in the swimming pool at his home in England on July 3."
Doors On The Road

Wonder how many of these still exist?...be rather cool to have one of those.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

And here is a copy of one of the few surviving handbills given out during the Aquarius performances saved by press agent Chris Boyle.

[mywildlove4371]

wow that is awesome I would love to get my hands on one of those in mint condition for my collection, I want to keep these things in my family which will carry on the memory of jim, through me and my children and so many others jims poety, his dream of being a poet lives on through us, we should be so proud!

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

Jim Morrison's poem 'Ode to L.A. While Thinking of Brian Jones, Deceased' is distributed at each of the Aquarius shows.
The poem was printed at Jim's expense.
It is a dark green type on light green paper.



Here it is featured in UK's Disc Magazine.

[pixiedust]

I know that for many years people have thought that Jim and Brian died on the same date, but Brian died on July 2nd, 1969, not July 3rd.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

May 20, 2011 4:20:54 GMT pixiedust said:

I know that for many years people have thought that Jim and Brian died on the same date, but Brian died on July 2nd, 1969, not July 3rd.

Salli I am well aware that Brian Jones died possibly on the 2nd of July NOT the 3rd but it is generally accepted it was the 3rd.
He 'died' around midnight so maybe it was the 2nd maybe it was the 3rd. We don't know for sure.

Who knows with absolute certainty.
Certainly not you anymore than me or anyone else. ;D

Your assumption that everybody has been labouring under the delusion that Jones died on the 3rd and you somehow have ridden in like a white knight to put us all right that he actually died on the 2nd is wildly incorrect as most people interested in the subject are well aware, and that is worth repeating, well aware of the ambiguity regarding the time of his death.
Just as they are well aware, and that is worth repeating again, well aware of some of the ambiguity regarding the death of Jim Morrison.

He was found before midnight and attempts to resuscitate him made around midnight. Was he still alive at this point?
Who knows?
Not me and certainly not you.
As Toyah once said....It's a myshtery and one none of us will ever solve.

Some say 2nd some say 3rd. None are either wrong or right as we just don't know.

Your grand pronouncement that the rest of us mere mortals don't know when Brian Jones died but you do is amusing.
You read somewhere it was the 2nd.
I have as well and so has probably everybody who is interested in the subject.
I have also read many times in many places that the 3rd is the date of his death.

It all depends on whether he was still alive when he was pulled out of the pool and attempts to revive him were made or whether he was dead.
Death Himself the final arbiter on this little enigma.

And that Salli is something you have not got a clue about anymore than the rest of us.
There is only one person who ever knew the answer to that question. His name was Brian Jones.

By all means don't take my word for it as I am nobody but in defence of my argument I present..........

Exhibit A

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

Salli's post gave me the bright idea of opening the 40 year TIM event in Paris with this very poem.
So if anyone reading this is in Paris that day and fancies giving it a go let me know and you can have the distinction of setting the ball rolling by reading this poem.

Jim Cherry has come forward and will open the reading with this poem.

[pixiedust]

May 20, 2011 8:45:32 GMT TheWallsScreamedPoetry said:

May 20, 2011 4:20:54 GMT pixiedust said:

I know that for many years people have thought that Jim and Brian died on the same date, but Brian died on July 2nd, 1969, not July 3rd.

Salli I am well aware that Brian Jones died possibly on the 2nd of July NOT the 3rd but it is generally accepted it was the 3rd.
He 'died' around midnight so maybe it was the 2nd maybe it was the 3rd. We don't know for sure.

Who knows with absolute certainty.
Certainly not you anymore than me or anyone else. ;D

Your assumption that everybody has been labouring under the delusion that Jones died on the 3rd and you somehow have ridden in like a white knight to put us all right that he actually died on the 2nd is wildly incorrect as most people interested in the subject are well aware, and that is worth repeating, well aware of the ambiguity regarding the time of his death.
Just as they are well aware, and that is worth repeating again, well aware of some of the ambiguity regarding the death of Jim Morrison.

He was found before midnight and attempts to resuscitate him made around midnight. Was he still alive at this point?
Who knows?
Not me and certainly not you.
As Toyah once said....It's a myshtery and one none of us will ever solve.

Some say 2nd some say 3rd. None are either wrong or right as we just don't know.

Your grand pronouncement that the rest of us mere mortals don't know when Brian Jones died but you do is amusing.
You read somewhere it was the 2nd.
I have as well and so has probably everybody who is interested in the subject.
I have also read many times in many places that the 3rd is the date of his death.

It all depends on whether he was still alive when he was pulled out of the pool and attempts to revive him were made or whether he was dead.
Death Himself the final arbiter on this little enigma.

And that Salli is something you have not got a clue about anymore than the rest of us.
There is only one person who ever knew the answer to that question. His name was Brian Jones.

By all means don't take my word for it as I am nobody but in defence of my argument I present..........

Exhibit A

Here is some proof for death on the 2nd of July. This is a link to Brian's death certificate. I'd post the actual image, but I'm technically challenged.

thehistoryofrockmusic.com/1960-s/brian-jones-of-the-rolling-stones-dies-in-his-swimming-pool/

Brian's death certificate reads: "date and place of death: Second July 1969 Cotchford Farm Hartfield." This legal document was signed by A.C. Summerville, Coroner for East Sussex and submitted for the record at the inquest on July 7th.

Brian died between 11:15 and 11:30 pm on July 2nd, 1969 according to witnesses. The call to 999 was made at approximately 11:35 pm on the 2nd.

When the ambulance crew arrived at 11:50 on July 2nd, they tried to revive Brian. The attempts were completely unsuccessful. The ambulance crew decided that he was dead prior to their arrival. From statements made by the witnesses, it was determined that Brian had died around 11:30 pm.

That is why the official time of death was 11:30 pm as written into the Magistrates Court Report of Inquisition taken at the inquest at East Grinstead.

P.C. Albert Evans was the first officer on the scene, arriving at 12.10 am on July 3rd and he was informed of the sequence of events by the ambulance crew. Brian's body was transported for autopsy to pathologist Albert Sachs at the Mortuary was Queen Victory Hospital, E. Grinstead and P.C. Evans started to further question witnesses.

In 2008 reporter Scott Jones interviewed Janet Lawson who was present at Brian's death. I quote:

"Has the riddle of Rolling Stone Brian Jones's death been solved at last?

By SCOTT JONES
Last updated at 10:06 PM on 29th November 2008

She was a tall, graceful woman who greeted me with a delicate handshake. As we chatted in her sitting room and she poured tea, I found it difficult to believe that this woman was once at the centre of one of pop's most mysterious deaths.

Janet Lawson was the person who found Rolling Stones star Brian Jones dead at the bottom of his swimming pool on July 2, 1969. "

Alex, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you persist in misreading my motives.

From your statements

...."white knight" and "grand pronouncement, etc."

you indicate that I am a know-it-all who likes to make grand pronouncements and that I think only I KNOW the truth.

You couldn't be more wrong about who and what you think I am and what my motives are.

The reason I posted Brian's death information was to correct misinformation. It was done in a sharing spirit, not a lording it over everyone stance.

Brian's dying on July 3rd is a common mistake. It was one that I made for several years, until I started actually researching the timeline of his death. I found out that Brian really died on July 2nd according to the witnesses, the ambulance crew, P.C. Evans, the death certificate and the Inquest document.

I hope the information I've given here is helpful.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

May 20, 2011 22:03:04 GMT pixiedust said:

When the ambulance crew arrived at 11:50 on July 2nd, they tried to revive Brian. The attempts were completely unsuccessful. The ambulance crew decided that he was dead prior to their arrival.

The only fly in the ointment with that Salli is that a UK ambulance crew in 1969 were A) not professionally trained enough to be able to say if a person was actually dead or not and B) had no legal power to pronounce a person dead.
So their opinion that Jones was dead when they got there really counted for little as they were not doctors. They did not have the necessary equipment to assist someone who had been in a drowning accident and likely did not have the specific training either. A lot of doctors did not have the specialty skills our guys have nowadays. At the time it was not considered anything other than an accident so the coroner simply took the word of the crew and judged it accordingly. This sort of thing is still a problem here even today.
Go read something about the Hillsborough Football deaths to see that minefield which comes with legally certifying time of death and who is a reasonable witness to such a thing.

I am well aware of all the information you think you have discovered and have seen the documentaries and even read the papers in 1969 when Brian died and am well aware of the information you share.

Drowning is a really awkward one anyway and in 1969 ambulance crews were not trained paramedics as they are nowadays.
I used to live across the road from an ambulance station and most of them were just ordinary folks doing an extraordinary job.
The ambiguity remains to this day.

To be perfectly honest I don't really care either way but the people who put up Jones gravestone beg to differ with you.
And I presumes the Jones family were fine with that.
It's a matter of choice and between them and you I choose them.

Nobody knows the answer as to whether Brian Jones still lived on July 3rd as there was nobody there at midnight who was able to clinically judge such a question.
It was a mystery yesterday and will be a mystery tomorrow.

May 20, 2011 22:03:04 GMT pixiedust said:

May 20, 2011 8:45:32 GMT TheWallsScreamedPoetry said:

Alex, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you persist in misreading my motives.

From your statements
Quote: ...."white knight" and "grand pronouncement, etc."

you indicate that I am a know-it-all who likes to make grand pronouncements and that I think only I KNOW the truth.

You couldn't be more wrong about who and what you think I am and what my motives are.

The reason I posted Brian's death information was to correct misinformation. It was done in a sharing spirit, not a lording it over everyone stance.

Brian's dying on July 3rd is a common mistake. It was one that I made for several years, until I started actually researching the timeline of his death. I found out that Brian really died on July 2nd according to the witnesses, the ambulance crew, P.C. Evans, the death certificate and the Inquest document.

I hope the information I've given here is helpful.

Probably comes from the way you put your first post.

And no the information you gave was not really helpful at all as none of the people you quote in any way had the ability to say conclusively whether Jones was alive or dead at midnight which is why the mystery remains and why July 3rd is probably on his gravestone.

A PC in 1969 was the same as an ambulance crew ....in that they were not trained as first responders. They may well have had rudimentary knowledge of life saving from swimming lessons but were not trained to be able to tell whether life still lingered. Pulse and non breathing in drowning cases are notoriously difficult to use as a way of determining this.

Have you not seen James Cameron's Abyss which is an extreme example I must admit but the general idea remains true.

This is why there is confusion and conflicting viewpoints in the Jones case and why what you say even though you support it with a 40 year old document is disputed even today. And I must add why my supporting my argument with Brians gravestone is also inconclusive as any form of an argument either in favour or not. It's all debatable as is the drama surrounding Jims death.

Hell he may have died on the 2nd for all we know. We base our information on the 3rd from a very dubious bunch of witnesses. (I don't include the French paramedics and doctor in that) I mean Pam and all the dozens of people who seem to have been either dragging Jim's corpse around Paris in a taxi or who were in the flat that night. Like Brian's a mystery we will never solve.


The coroner based his TOD on the judgment of people who were then in 1969 not qualified to make such a judgment.
Was Jones alive after midnight....we can never know.....but it is a distinct possibility as many people have been revived in more recent times after a good period of time.

I have no idea who put the stone up but they must have been of the opinion he died after midnight because that would be rather a silly thing to do if they had not thought it through.
The point I am making is I don't know and neither do you.
No one does.
That's how things worked in 1969 here. People made decisions like this on assumptions made by people not trained to make them.
Regardless of what either of us say none of us will ever know the truth.
Only one person can say and he is dead.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

Here are some question you may be able to answer considering how well you supposedly knew Jim.

Do you have any insight into why Jim wrote this poem?
As in why Brian in particular as a theme?
He never as far as we know wrote a poem about Janis or Jimi after their death.
Did he ever talk to you or to anyone who passed it on to you about this poem?

Do you know how he went about getting it printed?
Did he go to a professional printer or did he do this himself or did a friend do them for him?
If he did all this himself it makes the few remaining copies even more worth having.

Did he actually hand out the copies himself at the Aquarius gigs or did he get some helpers to do it for him?
We know he used to hand out poetry to friends both his own and poets like the LA Art Squad who he was pals with.

It has always fascinated me that he would go to a lot of effort to promote his poetry.
Several poems appeared in US magazines and we see this one appeared in Disc back in 1969 here in the UK. I don't think I was reading Disc then so I don't think I ever saw this.
I was a big Sounds man. Although by 1971 I was reading all the UK rock papers and mags through a sharing network with my mates.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

May 20, 2011 22:03:04 GMT pixiedust said:

Here is some proof for death on the 2nd of July. This is a link to Brian's death certificate. I'd post the actual image, but I'm technically challenged.

thehistoryofrockmusic.com/1960-s/....-swimming-pool/

Brian's death certificate reads: "date and place of death: Second July 1969 Cotchford Farm Hartfield." This legal document was signed by A.C. Summerville, Coroner for East Sussex and submitted for the record at the inquest on July 7th.

Just something that came to mind a few minutes back about your point here.
We should be careful of using the word 'proof' in our arguments when it comes to stuff like this because Jim Morrison's death certificate reads that he died from heart failure.
Now you know as well as I do that this particular document is disputed when used to make a point about his death so it is a major pitfall when bandying Official Documents about from periods like 1969 or 1971.

We Brits had just as blaise an attitude to stuff like this as the French did back then.
It's stuff that nowadays due to technology advancing is a lot more approaching 'proof' whatever that is.

Because it must be said that you yourself dispute the French document so you cannot have it both ways on that.
I must say I probably agree with you on that to some extent although am no supporter of the major conspiracy theories myself.

These things are not 'proof' as such simply evidence to support a particular argument.
It's a point that applies to both sides of that argument over both Jim and Brian which makes both deaths mysterious and so more interesting to those outside the fanbase.
Just an observation which I feel is relevant to your point....

[pixiedust]

May 20, 2011, 10:03pm, pixiedust wrote:

May 20, 2011 8:45:32 GMT TheWallsScreamedPoetry said:

Alex, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you persist in misreading my motives.

From your statements
Quote: ...."white knight" and "grand pronouncement, etc."

you indicate that I am a know-it-all who likes to make grand pronouncements and that I think only I KNOW the truth.

You couldn't be more wrong about who and what you think I am and what my motives are.

Probably comes from the way you put your first post.

When I get tired, I tend to post in short terse sentences. I was extremely tired when I posted. Still tired, but will try to be less terse.

The only fly in the ointment with that Salli is that a UK ambulance crew in 1969 were A) not professionally trained enough to be able to say if a person was actually dead or not and B) had no legal power to pronounce a person dead.

I got the impression from the various reports and comments shortly after Brian's death that more than one person on either the ambulance crew or the police on the scene had been certified with life saving training and were qualified to properly judge the situation they found. Perhaps the people on the ambulance crew or in the police department in Hartfield had different training from those in your city.

So their opinion that Jones was dead when they got there really counted for little as they were not doctors. They did not have the necessary equipment to assist someone who had been in a drowning accident and likely did not have the specific training either.

The ambulance crew in Hartfield was equipped with a blood pressure monitor and stethoscope and were trained to (1) hear a beating heart or one that had stopped or (2) find a pulse or lack of it. There was no beating heart and no pulse before July 2nd ended according to Janet and the official reports.

I think it's entirely possible that the papers got it wrong. Your newspapers aren't known for their wish to be accurate even today. Back in 1969 they were famous for all kinds of distortions of the news. (News of the World for instance.) Our papers in the US picked up that mistake and that's why I believed it was July 3rd until I started asking questions years later.

Nobody knows the answer as to whether Brian Jones still lived on July 3rd as there was nobody there at midnight who was able to clinically judge such a question. None of the people you quote in any way had the ability to say conclusively whether Jones was alive or dead at midnight

Janet Lawson was a registered nurse and trained to make that decision. She had had training in both standard life saving methods and what we now call CPR, so did Ana Wohlin who was not a nurse, but had studied and practiced the "kiss of life." It was more than apparent to Janet that Brian was dead by the time the ambulance crew arrived at 11:50 pm. After they arrived the ambulance crew worked on Brian for a few minutes, but getting no pulse, no heartbeat and no reaction that would indicate life, called the TOD on July 2nd. The police on arrival at 12:10 am on the 3rd concurred and Brian's body was later transported to the hospital for an autopsy.

The other thing is his body was not floating on the surface of the pool, but was found immobile on the bottom of the pool. That usually indicates that the person is dead because there is no air left in the lungs. Of course it's an entirely different situation in a body of water that has currents and can carry a corpse on its surface for days.

It isn't hard to figure out that someone is dead if you drag them out of a pool and use life saving techniques in use prior to 1969 or after that year and they don't react. It didn't and doesn't take a clinician to know if someone is dead from drowning. The ambulance crew stated Brian was dead before midnight.

Pulse and non breathing in drowning cases are notoriously difficult to use as a way of determining this.

Speaking from experience, it's not that difficult to ascertain the difference between someone who can be saved and someone who is beyond saving, although you usually try to save the person regardless. I've seen lifeguards work on people for up to 40 minutes with, sadly, no positive result.

To be perfectly honest I don't really care either way but the people who put up Jones gravestone beg to differ with you.
And I presumes the Jones family were fine with that.

I choose to believe the people who were there at the time of Brian's death. I don't remember offhand who ordered the tombstone, but it's now viewed as an incorrect date of death. I'd have to look up the details.

And I presumes the Jones family were fine with that.

I don't think they were fine with anything after Brian's death. No matter how one feels about one's son, the death of that son can be very traumatic.

I believe Lewis was traumatized by the loss of Brian, because of the way he reacted to the disposition of Brian's things. I know Brian and his mother had some pretty bad problems. Though he was getting along with his father, the last time I talked to Brian--three weeks before his death--the problems with his mother were still sadly unresolved at the time of our phone call. I do know that Louisa looked completely stricken at the loss of her son in the film footage of Brian's funeral. I don't think any of us will ever know the complete story of what happened between Brian and Louisa. What I heard from Brian just made me sorry for them both.

We should be careful of using the word 'proof' in our arguments when it comes to stuff like this

I agree, except in Brian's case the preponderance of evidence points to a specific TOD, July 2nd, backed up by actual paperwork, documentation and witness evidence. I'll see if I can come up with the reason the 3rd appeared on Brian's tombstone. Again, I think I have the information somewhere in my files.

What makes Brian's death interesting is whether he died an accidental death or was murdered. On July 3rd, when I first heard Brian died I asked who killed him. A lot of people who knew Brian asked the same question back in the day and they are still asking.

Despite the arguments as to how Jim Morrison died, I don't think there is any doubt at all that Jim was entirely and completely responsible for his own death.

Here are some question you may be able to answer considering how well you supposedly knew Jim.

Do you have any insight into why Jim wrote this poem? As in why Brian in particular as a theme?[/

Yes. Jim said he felt the loss of Brian's spirit and wanted to commemorate Brian's life and death.

Did he ever talk to you or to anyone who passed it on to you about this poem?

Because I knew Brian, Jim and I talked about Brian in depth. Jim gave me a copy of the poem he had written about Brian. Jim also gave me a copy of American Prayer, The Lords (blue envelope), and The New Creatures (the brown book dedicated to Pamela) and signed the last one for me.

He never as far as we know wrote a poem about Janis or Jimi after their death.

I have no idea if he wrote about Janis or Jimi. As far as I can remember, neither Janis or Jimi came up in our conversations. I doubt that they did as I didn't know either one of them, although I did know people who knew them. Since I didn't know Janis or Jimi personally and in fact had never met them, I didn't feel qualified to talk about them except in the sense of whether I liked their music or not. The music Jim and I discussed had nothing to do with rock and roll. We discussed, blues, jazz and 20th century modern classical music such as Bartok and Stravinsky.

Do you know how he went about getting it printed? Did he go to a professional printer or did he do this himself or did a friend do them for him?

I don't remember if we discussed the particulars of the poem's production. My feeling is we didn't. Jim was too busy asking me about what Brian was like as a person, but I think that information is available on the internet.

Did he actually hand out the copies himself at the Aquarius gigs or did he get some helpers to do it for him?

I heard that the poem was passed out to the audience by Jim and others who helped, but since I wasn't there I can't really say for sure. This was before I met Jim.

It has always fascinated me that he would go to a lot of effort to promote his poetry.

He said his poetry was the most important thing to him in his life. It was his soul. His reason for being. I believe that without his poetry, Jim would not have been Jim.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

May 20, 2011, 10:03pm, pixiedust wrote:

Yes. Jim said he felt the loss of Brian's spirit and wanted to commemorate Brian's life and death.

Because I knew Brian, Jim and I talked about Brian in depth. Jim gave me a copy of the poem he had written about Brian. Jim also gave me a copy of American Prayer, The Lords (blue envelope), and The New Creatures (the brown book dedicated to Pamela) and signed the last one for me.

I have no idea if he wrote about Janis or Jimi. As far as I can remember, neither Janis or Jimi came up in our conversations. I doubt that they did as I didn't know either one of them, although I did know people who knew them. Since I didn't know Janis or Jimi personally and in fact had never met them, I didn't feel qualified to talk about them except in the sense of whether I liked their music or not. The music Jim and I discussed had nothing to do with rock and roll. We discussed, blues, jazz and 20th century modern classical music such as Bartok and Stravinsky.

I don't remember if we discussed the particulars of the poem's production. My feeling is we didn't. Jim was too busy asking me about what Brian was like as a person, but I think that information is available on the internet.

I heard that the poem was passed out to the audience by Jim and others who helped, but since I wasn't there I can't really say for sure. This was before I met Jim.

It has always fascinated me that he would go to a lot of effort to promote his poetry.

He said his poetry was the most important thing to him in his life. It was his soul. His reason for being. I believe that without his poetry, Jim would not have been Jim.

Yeah I heard that he did this himself with the poem but just wondered if he had discussed this with you at all.
It's an interesting little anecdote about Morrison and an insight into a lot of what we discuss here with regards his motivation as to why he was in The Doors.
The shamanistic/Dionysian Jim Morrison of Ray Manzarek has rung hollow with me for a long time now and I have felt that there was something else to the story.
WYS, a film that you yourself promoted, is one of the biggest hatchet jobs I have ever seen or heard of and misrepresented Morrison worse than Stone ever did.
For me the real artist shines in stories like this and kicks the ass of the crap Manzarek and people like DiCillo talk.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

May 20, 2011, 10:03pm, pixiedust wrote:

I got the impression from the various reports and comments shortly after Brian's death that more than one person on either the ambulance crew or the police on the scene had been certified with life saving training and were qualified to properly judge the situation they found. Perhaps the people on the ambulance crew or in the police department in Hartfield had different training from those in your city.

The ambulance crew in Hartfield was equipped with a blood pressure monitor and stethoscope and were trained to (1) hear a beating heart or one that had stopped or (2) find a pulse or lack of it. There was no beating heart and no pulse before July 2nd ended according to Janet and the official reports.

I think it's entirely possible that the papers got it wrong. Your newspapers aren't known for their wish to be accurate even today. Back in 1969 they were famous for all kinds of distortions of the news. (News of the World for instance.) Our papers in the US picked up that mistake and that's why I believed it was July 3rd until I started asking questions years later.

Janet Lawson was a registered nurse and trained to make that decision. She had had training in both standard life saving methods and what we now call CPR, so did Ana Wohlin who was not a nurse, but had studied and practiced the "kiss of life." It was more than apparent to Janet that Brian was dead by the time the ambulance crew arrived at 11:50 pm. After they arrived the ambulance crew worked on Brian for a few minutes, but getting no pulse, no heartbeat and no reaction that would indicate life, called the TOD on July 2nd. The police on arrival at 12:10 am on the 3rd concurred and Brian's body was later transported to the hospital for an autopsy.

The other thing is his body was not floating on the surface of the pool, but was found immobile on the bottom of the pool. That usually indicates that the person is dead because there is no air left in the lungs. Of course it's an entirely different situation in a body of water that has currents and can carry a corpse on its surface for days.

It isn't hard to figure out that someone is dead if you drag them out of a pool and use life saving techniques in use prior to 1969 or after that year and they don't react. It didn't and doesn't take a clinician to know if someone is dead from drowning. The ambulance crew stated Brian was dead before midnight.

Speaking from experience, it's not that difficult to ascertain the difference between someone who can be saved and someone who is beyond saving, although you usually try to save the person regardless. I've seen lifeguards work on people for up to 40 minutes with, sadly, no positive result.

I choose to believe the people who were there at the time of Brian's death. I don't remember offhand who ordered the tombstone, but it's now viewed as an incorrect date of death. I'd have to look up the details.

I don't think they were fine with anything after Brian's death. No matter how one feels about one's son, the death of that son can be very traumatic.

I believe Lewis was traumatized by the loss of Brian, because of the way he reacted to the disposition of Brian's things. I know Brian and his mother had some pretty bad problems. Though he was getting along with his father, the last time I talked to Brian--three weeks before his death--the problems with his mother were still sadly unresolved at the time of our phone call. I do know that Louisa looked completely stricken at the loss of her son in the film footage of Brian's funeral. I don't think any of us will ever know the complete story of what happened between Brian and Louisa. What I heard from Brian just made me sorry for them both.

I agree, except in Brian's case the preponderance of evidence points to a specific TOD, July 2nd, backed up by actual paperwork, documentation and witness evidence. I'll see if I can come up with the reason the 3rd appeared on Brian's tombstone. Again, I think I have the information somewhere in my files.

What makes Brian's death interesting is whether he died an accidental death or was murdered. On July 3rd, when I first heard Brian died I asked who killed him. A lot of people who knew Brian asked the same question back in the day and they are still asking.

Despite the arguments as to how Jim Morrison died, I don't think there is any doubt at all that Jim was entirely and completely responsible for his own death.

I don't live in a city Salli I live in a town and very very few ambulance crew in 1969 were trained paramedics. (if any)
Their job was to get people quickly to a hospital.
Nowadays these guys have more training and experience than the doctors. Which is why Hillsborough was brought into my argument.
The point I make is that nobody there was sufficiently trained to judge that death had taken place.
They had neither the equipment (as ambulances in 1969 did not carry de-fib gear) or most likely the experience with cases involving crush or drowning.
I was trained in first aid as a site engineer and had the ability to hear whether a heart was beating or take a pulse but this in itself is notoriously flawed in cases like drowning and crush.
Knowing CPR and having life saving training is not nowadays recognised as sufficient in these cases.
The Hillsborough case shows that people who seem to have no pulse and are not breathing can be revived. Though obviously time is a factor.
I have actually been on a building site where this happened and someone who was seen by a first aider (not me thankfully) to have no pulse and no heart beat after falling about 40 feet was revived perhaps 20 minutes to half an hour later by an ambulance crew.
Probably because their vitals were so faint to be detectable.
Just in case you wonder why I remember this well it's not something to forget when you see a pool of blood on a concrete floor slab that looked like a lake.

I am not arguing for the sake of argument Salli simply pointing out that drowning victims have been revived after a decent period of time and the possibility exists....I repeat possibility ....that Jones had a spark of life within him at midnight....
Not being much of a Stones fan it's not of that much importance to me either way.
It's a nice coincidence with Morrison and why people mention it but as I say there exists the possibility that Jones died on the 3rd.
Just as there exists the possibility that Morrison died on the 2nd.
In both cases there is a dispute regarding various facts and testimony regarding the cases.
You are well aware as I am that in both cases murder is a possibility as some Doors fans believe such a possibility.
I for one think such a viewpoint rather strange but I don't know for sure anymore than anyone else.
There is a lot of doubt in both cases and that makes the whole thing interesting.
Did Morrison die on the 2nd not the 3rd?
It's possible.
Did Jones die on the 3rd not the 2nd.
Also it's possible.
Will we ever know with certainty?
Simple answer No!
I am sure Stones fans have as much debate about Jones as we do about Morrison and they come to the same conclusions as we do based on the information at their disposal.
That being there are more questions than answers.

It isn't hard to figure out that someone is dead if you drag them out of a pool and use life saving techniques in use prior to 1969 or after that year and they don't react. It didn't and doesn't take a clinician to know if someone is dead from drowning. The ambulance crew stated Brian was dead before midnight.

Speaking from experience, it's not that difficult to ascertain the difference between someone who can be saved and someone who is beyond saving, although you usually try to save the person regardless. I've seen lifeguards work on people for up to 40 minutes with, sadly, no positive result.

But that's the point.....it is indeed difficult to ascertain the difference between someone who can be saved and someone who is beyond saving. Even for people with good training. That was shown at Hillsborough on 15th April 1989. And the reason why it is a possibility.
Our ambulance crews in 1969 were not trained to the degree they are now and could not ascertain whether or not a person was 'dead'. They could merely offer up an opinion based on what training they had.
I am not dissing these people simply pointing out that in 1969 we did not know as much as we did in 1989 when Hillsborough took place and 2009 or today. That is why 40 odd years ago the attitude to what defines 'death' was a lot different than it is today.
I saw first hand someone carried from a building site to an ambulance that looked to the first aider and me and everybody else as deader than flares but who was revived by the crew before they got him to hospital.
So it is indeed.
You put forward a good argument Sal and you are probably correct but there is enough doubt to be able to conclude that you are not.

We should be careful of using the word 'proof' in our arguments when it comes to stuff like this

I agree, except in Brian's case the preponderance of evidence points to a specific TOD, July 2nd, backed up by actual paperwork, documentation and witness evidence.

Same as Morrison and the heart attack.

Let's not forget that there was corroborating testimony to support Jim's heart attack death both regarding the actual day (July 2nd) and before stating that he was ill, but you yourself are one of those who dispute that and supports a darker cause with one of the heroin theories. One of which involves a bunch of clubbers dragging his corpse around Paris in a taxi which gives rise to the fact he possibly died before midnight and therefore on the 2nd.

Which shows that people will always question these kinds of mysterious deaths.
Me I have given up with the Morrison theories and believe it was actually aliens
But the fact still remains that 'a' could have been 'b' in both cases.
These two deaths are linked by more than just a date and are probably the two most contentious deaths in rock probably alongside Elvis and his toilet hamburger death.
Interesting discussion this Sal be cool if a few more joined in.

[pixiedust]

I am not arguing for the sake of argument Salli simply pointing out that drowning victims have been revived after a decent period of time and the possibility exists....I repeat possibility ....that Jones had a spark of life within him at midnight....

That leaves us with a possibly very dark concept regarding Brian's death. IF he was still alive and could be revived in a hospital, but was declared dead at the time, than we have a case of someone who was allowed to die simply because he was judged to be already dead.

Would that be considered involuntary manslaughter? Death by accident of not being revived? Not murder with intent, but murder without intent? OR did someone have a motive for killing Brian and just allow him to die by saying he was dead? According to witness statements, Anna claimed to feel Brian squeezing her hand and Janet told Anna that no, Brian was dead. It was just a muscular contraction found in death.

Per Jim, if the nightclub death theory is true (as I have been told), and Jim was taken home to be dumped in a tub of cold water by the Count and his friends to try to revive him, instead of being taken directly to a hospital where Jim could have possibly been saved, do we have murder by accident or murder with intent? The Count was identified as Pamela's connection and he did leave town the next evening because he was afrad of being arrested for supplying heroin to Pamela and either by accident or deliberately to Jim.


I suppose if the other scenario is true and Pamela went to sleep after Jim took some of her heroin (either by accident as she said in one version, or as she said in another version with full knowledge that it was heroin,) that might be death by negligence or murder without intent, because of course the last thing she wanted to do was kill Jim?

Or maybe it was aliens in both cases ...or so many other possibilities.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

That is the crux of both matters Salli.
Doubt!
You have made a very robust defence of your argument and I have thouroughly enjoyed the debate.
Who won.....probably you by a nose as to be completely honest I myself stopped believing the Jim and Brian died on the same day argument years ago.

But acknowledge that they might well have and that day may have been the 2nd or the 3rd of July.

But that does not mean my points were trivial and just brought up for an argument, as indeed you yourself chuck into the ring the point of the Jones hand movement to further add to the mystery.
It is possible Jones was alive after midnight but probably not likely. The limitations of the emergency responders as to determination of death were just an accident of the nature of the times. We just did not have the knowledge we do now about these things. As to those present before the ambulance arrived who can say with any certainty.

Also it is possible Jim died before midnight as the people involved were not the most reliable.
If drugs were involved.... (which I am not a subscriber to myself)
...did Morrison have a chance if he had gotten to a hospital?
And if yes what responsibility did those there bear?
If heart related did the French firemen do everything right.
They were trained better than our guys as they were paramedics.
I don't know what equipment they had off hand but I imagine it was documented in some book I have read.
was there a more sinister element to Morrison?
Who knows for certain which conspiracy to believe.
In the end it does not matter as both are dead and it is the mystery that still ensures both men are remembered by people outside their fanbase.

It all adds to that mystery and it is in the mystery that keep people interested.
Your last post contains points that add to the unsettling nature of both events.
And we just do not know the answers and probably never will.

[pixiedust]

I doff my hat. I think we can call this a draw fair and even - I've thoroughly enjoyed debating you on this subject and hope for many more. Until further information is forthcoming, you are right. Their deaths remain a mystery, despite the information currently revealed.

You have also contributed some highly informative points which I will endeavor to explore and return sometime this week with additional speculations and points for contemplation.

Please excuse the slightly medieval phrasing in the last sentence. I've just finished watching The Borgias, which is wonderful if not always accurate. It has me scrambling into Borgia history. Anon, Alex ;D ;D

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

November 1969

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]