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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 31, 2024 10:15:28 GMT
It was on January 4, 1967, when the Doors released the band's self-titled debut album to the world, sending fans and critics alike into a frenzy. The freshly minted outfit had put the LP together in record time, according to singer Jim Morrison.
"We started almost immediately, and some of the songs took only a few takes. We’d do several takes just to make sure we couldn’t do a better one." the singer explained to Rolling Stone in 1969. "It’s also true that on the first album they don’t want to spend as much. The group doesn’t either, because the groups pay for the production of an album. That’s part of the advance against royalties. You don’t get any royalties until you’ve paid the cost of the record album. So the group and the record company weren’t taking a chance on the cost. So for economic reasons and just because we were ready, it went very fast." This can be found on The Doors Official site
I would argue that this is nearer the truth. We know there were 2 versions of The End and that is likely all that were recorded. Ray never the best source in Doors History. What JD says is more likely to be nearer true. It has been part of Doors History that it took exactly 6 days with a weekend break during the last week in August. Starting 24th most likely. But on the 50th cover notes it says they were recording The End on August 21st which was their 3rd day recording the LP. So starting 19th August. That throws a spanner in the oft quoted 24th as a starting point such as from 'On The Road'.
## However the 40th booklet claims it began the last week in August and finished first week in September which throws a spanner in the August 19th start date.
John mentions it took 6 days in "Doors By The Doors" but gives no specific date. There is a lot around The Doors that is embellished and quite simply forgotten or not known in the first place and passed off as truth.
The producer did an interview in March 1967 and proved he knew nothing about the band he had recorded. "I actually know very little. I know that Ray Manzarek and Jim Morrison started performing together when they were both students at the film school at UCLA. They were friends from the film department and they found out they both had an interest in music and they started to perform. Their early music was mostly blues with Ray doing a tremendous amount of the singing, interestingly enough. As for where they came from, and how they got together . . . they did all get together at the University of California at Los Angeles, and, well, they were playing together as long ago as about two and a half years, I guess. As the Doors they’ve been playing together for a little over a year now, a year and a half… And it’s, uh, a constantly changing and moving process for them." Most of that not anywhere near what happened. So if you can't trust what the people who were there said those who came after can hardly be held up as authorities on what happened. This was also on The Doors Official site.
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Post by zaval80 on May 31, 2024 11:10:14 GMT
Oh! I forgot about the 50th Anni set at all, thank you! so that's the source confirming that "Aug 19th" session, etc.
I "anchored" the 1st album dates first of all to what's on Mild Equator and also in Heinz Gerstenmeyer's 1965-1966 book; these accounts are slightly different, but both have 1st LP sessions as Sept 12 to 23. These dates are confirmed by the surviving documents, and it's 10 days like in some of the accounts (I never thought of "six days" as believable).
So if sessions started on Aug 19th, it's all the better. At least explains how come "The End" alone took 30 hours, or 10 days, and not in the range of Sept 12 to 23 except for two dates for the song in that period. I tend to believe most in Jim Morrison's words, his accounts always were the less polluted.
Aug 19th was Friday, must have been the first day after Jac has got a preliminary agreement on the contract from them. Aug 24th was Wednesday. Aug 29th for which we have a photo of tape box with a mention of "SINGLE" was Monday, and Sept 12th was Monday too. These things are important for establishing the chronology.
Aug 19th could have been some preliminary date, to get them a hang of the studio and the serious recording work.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 31, 2024 11:23:38 GMT
You have to wonder where they got that from.
I'm fine with the 6 days as the band all mention they recorded as they played live so this would speed up things. They only recorded 13 tracks so 2 or 3 a day gives plenty of time for a first day learning about the studio.
I can't believe the band would go into the studio on August 19th and then not carry on recording after the weekend. These guys were hungry and ready to rock.
The first mention of a contract was actually July 7th 1966 which blows a lot of Doors lore straight out the water. ## See History, Documents and October 22nd document ##
I seriously doubt it took 30 hours recording The End. Paul says he spliced the two versions together and mentions nothing about their being dozens of The End to work with. All he mentions is TWO.
As you say Jim is always a better source for stuff than the others. Look at Ray and his first night at The Whisky they played with Them and did a jam with Them after the show.
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Post by zaval80 on May 31, 2024 11:35:15 GMT
He heh, Paul had good reason to boast of just two sessions, the second of which gave two takes for the master. But he conveniently forgot about all the preceding work. He was a master manipulator, as his account with the Clear Light band shows (he told them he wanted to make them bigger than The Doors, ah ha ha), so it wasn't even like he had to lie, he just "forgot", so he'd be able to say something like "the machines worked by themselves, it was magic in the studio". But "The End" is a complex song, so I tend to believe in the story of 26 versions. Even "I Looked At You" took them 29 takes as per ME site, and the session for "Moonlight Drive" from Aug 29th has about the same amount (and there was another one in September).
The dates Sept 12 to 23 were researched from the surviving studio documentation. Some examples are on ME site, other are in Heinz' book, and there must be more of these I haven't seen, probably somewhere on the Facebook in some collectors' group.
Ray's Them story, yes, a "creative memory".
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Post by zaval80 on May 31, 2024 11:37:34 GMT
The contract was signed at the end of 1966, October something, yes. What was signed on Aug 18th was some document on the intentions, agreed by Max Fink, and this paper allowed Jac Holzman to take them to the studio.
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Post by zaval80 on May 31, 2024 13:58:22 GMT
I about forgot that one of these dates, Aug 19 to 21, refers to the famous "Oedipal" acid trip of Morrison at the Whisky. So who knows how it was for him regarding the studio on the next day. P.S. Found the Jim quote about thirty hours for "The End" here, thank you for your forum, Alex: newdoorstalk.proboards.com/thread/2491/scene-club-new-york-1967
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 31, 2024 14:55:02 GMT
That certainly does not tie in with a 6 day session. Perhaps he was exaggerating we don't know for sure he actually meant 30 hours. Of course he may have meant exactly that which blows a lot of Doors lore out of the water. Ray and John have mentioned the less than a week session on many occasions. Being a Doors fan isn't easy.
July 7th was the date of the agreement referred to on the October 22nd 1968 document. This document seems to be a new royalty agreement replacing what was agreed in July 66. ## Which is impossible as Jac did not offer them a contract until '18th August 1966'. Or did he?
It looks like the band were signed to Elektra a lot earlier than we Doors fans thought.
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Post by zaval80 on May 31, 2024 15:42:51 GMT
As far as I know John is hopeless with chronology, Ray has a memory which is too creative, Robby is best when he's assisted by somebody like by his co-author for his book. And Jim was younger than they were when they gave most of their reminiscences, and the further I investigate his words, the more they are on the money. So I don't doubt in the least what he said regarding The End. It could be that Rothchild had them to amass as much takes as possible over more days than the two dates which are talked about. And of course, it's not a song for which many takes could be expected within a single day. So there must have been more of those 1st LP sessions.
Good thing I stumbled on that quote in Rainer's. It's impossible to find anything like this in any recent biography or an interview. I thought, it was 10 days, and yes there are 10 dates listed in the sources I know.
An important factor is, it was played live. Like, for TSP sessions for the tracks of songs ended in the middle of January; so what were they doing for about 5-6 months more? it looks like Jim's vocal sessions, overdubs, orchestra, and then Paul mixing the stuff. But "The End" being live means just 10 standard 3-hour sessions.
(I also noticed they've ascribed Jim's words in TDbTD as MH taking 9 months, when it was TSP. So we just have to check everything and double-check.)
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Post by zaval80 on May 31, 2024 15:49:33 GMT
As for contract, we know he saw them first at the very end of May when he went to see Love. So before Aug 19th there were roughly 2.5 months to get the contract going. Also, he says he went to their shows 4 or 5 times. So probably he made them the offer in June, some time closer to the end, then they hemmed and hawed and got Max Fink to handle it. It could be the earlier agreement from Jul 7th was just a paper concerning Jac's offer, not the kind of a document which would allow him legally to proceed without having his "acquisition" covered. Guess I have to check that contract, one never knows which surprises can await with this band.
P.S. I've checked what you have - yes it's July 1966, the one thing we don't know, though - what if this July document was backdated. We have no idea of all this legalese, esp. considering there are no mentions of any dates in Aug or Oct-Nov 1966 in that 1968 amendment. So we know just there was some document from the beginning of July, probably made valid by another document from Aug, and this leaves the question of what exactly was signed in Oct-Nov 1966, but the end result is, all these documents backdate the relationship between Elektra and The Doors to as early as July 1966.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 31, 2024 17:29:01 GMT
I think you are over thinking it mate. It was seemingly a provisional contract with information such as royalty rates. This is what many sources claim Jac offered them on the 18th August. For me it is beyond doubt. A contract of some sort between The Doors and Elektra was signed in July not August as regularly thought.
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Post by zaval80 on May 31, 2024 19:34:55 GMT
I don't remember in which book I've read about Max Fink preparing a "letter of intentions" or something which gave Jac the possibility to go ahead. My point wasn't that Jac offered them something like better rates on Aug 18th, my point was, that "letter" document was from Aug 18th. If Jac was able to send them to a studio in July 1967, the question would be, what was he waiting for, Paul moving to LA from NY? Yes it could be a story lurking here, or it could be not. The sessions being longer than 10 days means one thing: their live act wasn't enough for a quick reproduction in the studio. It could be that Rothchild put them through many rehearsals before taking them to studio.
Probably some clue could be found through investigating Paul's schedule, like, what other acts he was producing at the time, and when exactly.
P.S. I have a book called "Encyclopedia of Record Producers", it says Paul saw them in July 1966 and was astonished. Not that I trust this book much, as it does not look the stories are first-hand. His 1966 works are PBBB, Love, Tim Buckley, Charles River Valley Boys, and Mark Spoelstra - at the very least. He was also dealing with Albert Grossman, so that's how Canadians the Paupers were under his attention. Maybe there's a clue amidst the info on these works of his.
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Post by zaval80 on May 31, 2024 20:04:20 GMT
Probably research of Paul's activity would be of no use. Paul needed to move to LA, and Jac needed to talk up Paul's parole officer first. 40 days probably is an ample time for this.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 31, 2024 21:23:42 GMT
The October 22nd 1968 contract amendment was probably due to Abe Somer getting them increased royalty rates as that was one of the first things he did when he was taken on as their attorney in 1968.
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Post by zaval80 on Jun 1, 2024 0:08:54 GMT
I decided to look into Paul's doings back at the time. This is what recent Michael Bloomfield's biog tells us:
"Meanwhile, Paul Rothchild, now back at Elektra and acting again as the Butterfield Band's producer, was trying to finish up the mix for the new album. The record was scheduled to be released in August, but Rothchild's constant tinkering had pushed its shipping date back by several weeks."
(Wiki has the album release date as August. I have the "Endless Trip" reference book, will check the release date there.)
No exact dates, but very probably Paul was still doing jail time in July, and after that had the PBBB second album on his hands.
It is said Tim Buckley's debut was recorded by Paul in Sunset in Aug 1966, took only 3 days (Wiki). Well, these "3 days" could be half of "6 days" for The Doors...
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Post by zaval80 on Jun 1, 2024 16:37:04 GMT
Checked the Aug 21st "The End" session story. It seems The Doors' organisation is so pathetic, they rely on Bruce's rememberances of his beloved baseball as the source for The Doors' studio dates. Like, on Aug 21st LA Dodgers played against the St. Louis Cardinals in the fourth (final) game of the series and won. But Steven Davis quotes apparently Botnick in his book, and this time it's LMF, not The End, and SF Giants. There were 2 periods when LAD played against SFG: Aug 26 to 28, 3 games, last game won, and Sept 5 to 7, 3 games, last game lost. Probably there are earlier accounts by Bruce somewhere and more baseball details, but this is all I've found so far. (Haven't paid much attention to whether LAD won or lost, according to Bruce. Probably also, whether Sandy Koufax was in the line-up.)
Davis says Paul flew to LA in September. Aug 29th is almost September, while Aug 19th not so.
So, no definitive conclusion to this story, except The Doors in the studio before Aug 29th is not confirmed by anything, and that date is proven by the tape box and by a receipt.
I also saw some accounts of the preliminary agreement signed on Aug 20th, not 18th. Probably this is something to consider, like, who stated this and where/when. Could Jac send them to studio on Aug 19 if that was the day before the signing? doubtful, but who knows. Also, it was Friday. So it's doubtful the next sessions were on the weekend. Yes it seems there were rare weekend sessions, but not on Sept 17-18, for example. I wonder how Greg Shaw arrived at Aug 24th (Wednesday), probably somebody said it was the middle of the week.
P.S. Checked Shaw's "On The Road". That venerable source is no good re: first sessions, but there is a mention of "last week of August". Shaw somehow made it Aug 24 to 31 ("six days", weekend break; said Paul flew to NY immediately to edit and mix), but really it's a clear pointing at 29.08.1966, the first session for which there is documentation).
IMO 29.08.1966 looks like it on all counts, but if I get a chance to check the gruesome "baseball details" more, I'll do it.
BTW, Shaw mentions Paul R. as a source of certain Elektra-related things at that time, like his Aug 15th visit to check the band live and Aug. 18th as the signing date. And, if it's Paul's hint at "last week of August", then it's godsend. But then there are "six days" which are 11 already as proven by documentation.
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Post by zaval80 on Jun 5, 2024 23:45:24 GMT
Had another good long thought about this. So "The End" took no less than ten 3-hour standard sessions as per Jim (also by Alice Cooper, indirectly). Two of these are documented, and another 2 to 4 could have taken place on Sept 12 and 13 in the days prior to Sept 14 and 15 for the known dates. So it looks like we have a half of these 10 sessions covered already, and I think there were more, say, a couple on Sept 14th at least. Ray said they worked from 2 pm to 2 am, so that's 2 to 3 3-hour sessions for every day.
It looks like Aug 29 was the specific session for an aborted single, and then Sept 12 to 23 - album sessions. Then 5 weeks mixing (Paul in NY). Doubtful that The Doors' guys were participating in those as some stories go.
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