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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 11, 2006 14:17:00 GMT
Whether Paris Blues is good or not is irrelevant. It just needs to be released. I know why Indian Summer is on the Doors album but it should not be counted as an outtake. There are also supposedly several studio versions of COTL that the doors recorded in attempt to put that as a big part of their WTFS album. Away in India would be sweet.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jul 11, 2006 14:27:41 GMT
I agree 100%............regardless of quality regardless of whether its complete all the material these people have should be stuck on a disc or discs either from BMR or Elektra and shared with Doors fans.........
Gotta disagree slightly with IS as it is an out take from the first album so its fair to add it there...........in the same way the version of WFTS on Morrison Hotel was actually from the WFTS sessions with a few overdubs.........if they found another version of that it would be fair to add it to the WFTS album.......... There were indeed several versions of COTL recorded....at least 3 varying in length from 20 to 30 minutes if the LA Times are to be belived......there may well have been a lot of smaller segments recorded as well in an attempt to nail the track.......... whether they survived....thats the million dollar question........
Considering that it was announced a few years back during the Sugerman era that archiving was complete its galling to hear the drivel from the current administration that they have no idea what they have still........... I for one do not trust these people to tell me the truth as a Doors fan...........
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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 11, 2006 14:37:49 GMT
yeah but in regards to Indian Summer- its the same song, they are just using it twice and counting one as an outtake.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jul 11, 2006 14:45:30 GMT
You make a fair point........I can't and won't argue with what you say.......the whole thing is a bit of a joke considering why they closed BMR down a few years back was to bring us this plethora of out takes they had found....... A farce of The Doors own making it must be said....they come off as a bunch of hustlers just trying to milk the cash cow (us) before the milk runs dry...........
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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 11, 2006 21:19:42 GMT
If they were smart, they would ACTUALLY work hard, and get some good rough stuff out over the next ten years or so. The outtake poll is just going to have the songs that they have readily available to release. There is not going to be some big fan input, just what they want in there. I think we should try and find a Doors insider thats not a jackass and find out what they actually have in the vaults.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jul 11, 2006 21:47:39 GMT
They need to be a helluva lot quicker than that mate........the market is not there.....BMR/BMA is of minor interest and has failed spectacularly (damn shame) and looking at the way The Doors have nose-dived on the internet compared to what it was 5 years ago who will they sell this stuff to in 10 years..........the time is NOW as the younger generation of fans is not gonna be steeped in the History in 10 years as that is dying out fast as the interest wanes from fans who were promised shit by these fools and were sold down the river with a pack of lies............. There was a real market for this in 2001 when BMR was first thought about but in 2006 its dying out due to the inepitude of Doors management...........if they cannot get the dyed in the wool Doors fans to buy how can they get the new generations interested............... Guys like me who were customers will be dead or being spoon fed and all that will be left will be a few old hands and the casual fans who like the Hits........... The Doors to me seem like a bunch of inept cheap hustlers out to screw a buck from thier fans but with little real idea how to actually do it........they lurch from one PR disaster to another.....their manager is a lying idiot who gives a bad name to lying idiots....... If he as manager of The Doors this last coupla years (and before as co manager with Danny) has NOT got a complete inventory (including having actually listened to every tape) of what they have then he should be sacked! This guy tells lies with more regularity than your average politician.....if he told me my name I would have to check my birth certificate.......... These people do not seem to give a crap that people like me think they are liars and do not trust them as far as I can shit......... They are so utterly inept that they do not see how worrying it is that Doors fans who have been Doors fans for decades have given up on them........Hell I will be a Doors fan the day they shove me in a box but I will not buy the shit these morons are selling anymore........if I can get it from the Net...screw these people!!!!! 2008 is the date of the out takes now.......who knows what will happen be4 that.......the vibrant internet community I first became part of in 2000 is dead.......websites are gone.....message forums are tombs....even the bands own board is a joke compared to 2001. Fans have deserted The Doors on the Net in droves ........many many of the people who like me were over the moon when we saw the first BMR release are gone........the sales were hardly great back then but are laughable now....but the diffetrence was that in 2001 the potential was there to make BMR something special but it got pissed away by greed driven idiots who thought that lies deceit and manipulation were better ways to sell albums than a bit of honesty and integrity towards the fans/customers..... Today The Doors world is devoid of the optimism of 2001 and all thats left is three grubby greedy old men who employ liars to try and con those left into believing that they are working their arces for us (the fans) ................. Some fall for it but most have vanished from the scene and who knows if they will return.......... The most important thing The Doors had was trust and integrity ......hell i believed in these people for 30 years.....I would not trust them now with my shit............. And that is something that should worry the hell out of them as they have alienated their best customers and that is the testimony to how far The Doors have fallen in 5 years...........
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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 12, 2006 15:45:04 GMT
Well, they didn't completely sell out. You don't see their songs on commercials or anything. They have not been fully commercialized. I meant over the next ten years. They have at least 20-30 more high quality concerts to release and about 6 hours of outtakes. if they release as much stuff as they can over these next ten years, they'll become popular. Then when the remaining members of the band die, people will know who they were. BMA is struggling to survive off some idealised rock shaman Jim Morrison rather than working off their amazing music. Let's face it, The Doors are better than the Who or Led Zepplin but no one would know. Why? Because they are mismanaged.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jul 12, 2006 17:09:06 GMT
BMR was well promoted in magazines here in the UK back in 2001....the band did a major promotion in Paris which was well covered. The label is associated with Rhino which is a well known collectors label so it was hardly anonymous back then. I do not know where you get 20 plus high quality concerts from as the AL gigs they have left amount to about half a dozen and Bakersfield, the two Boston shows (which are pretty awful) and the two Treanor gigs which have already made it to bootlegs barely make half that. They have said they have one or two from 1967 but never said what they have.......these shows would make thier most bankable releases ......... Also their high water mark has been passed now already ........they had thousands 'interested' in 2001 of whom many many were dissillusioned by poor service/high prices and broken promises and now have gone probably never to return.................they are not going to interest thousands more with 30 year old bootlegs sold via a collectors label at extortionate prices........even if they did a mainstream retail release at 7 or 8 pounds they would not sell it in the quantities they need to make a viable release........... The market now can be measured in hundreds now not thousands.... Even if they spent a fortune advertising BMA there is no gaurentee that people would rush to buy... The Doors customer base is dwindling fast ......Legacy hardly set the world alight so how is releasing an old bootleg gonna turn thier fortunes around...... This 40 years of LMF is maybe the last chance they have to boost thier profile........... Maybe this book/film/Best Of releases will interest a new record buying public.....maybe not..... These people have pissed away a golden opportunity to establish a decent fan based pool of steady customers who would have kept BMR afloat. Doors fans have dissapeared in droves in less than 5 years on the Internet......... BMA stood or fell by how healthy the internet community was now its gone where does that leave them. Word of mouth was the best advertising tool that BMA had....... Philly was a dissapointment and sold poorly.....they did not even dare print too many as they knew it was not gonna sell well.......now they have shelved the Boston release, Matrix was a complete farce and only a decent Felt Forum release could even begin too pull them out the shit....... Jampol announced two BMA releases for 2006 after Philly but has been quiet on that for months now.....I doubt we will see a new BMA release till 2007. Nobody (in the mainstream rock record buying market) knows who Manzarek/Densmore/Krieger are and frankly nobody cares either.....the fact the music is awesome is based on Jim as it's focal point.....because Morrison is both The Doors focal point and its biggest selling point and always has been.....but interest in Jim is waning too......look at last week......hardly anyone could even be bothered to remark on the 35th year of his passing on the Official Forums............. Even among Doors fans interest in Morrison is waning.......its a brutal fact that The Doors community is crumbling fast.......five years ago it was vibrant and all over the Net....now its pretty dead and hard to find......... The Doors market for 30 year old gigs and out takes is dissapearing fast.....they either take advantage of what they have now or they end up with a lot less in two years time.............
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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 12, 2006 21:13:29 GMT
I do not know where you get 20 plus high quality concerts from as the AL gigs they have left amount to about half a dozen and Bakersfield, the two Boston shows (which are pretty awful) and the two Treanor gigs which have already made it to bootlegs barely make half that. They have said they have one or two from 1967 but never said what they have.......these shows would make thier most bankable releases .........
They can clean up Miami '69 (they did it with Five to One from that concert) Miami would be an awesome release especially if they included trial stuff. Vancouver was sound board i believe CD covering PBS critique show (or even just an DVD concert thats not spliced up lke Soft Parade) Martix shows are highly marketable Seattle Felt Forum 1 and 2 If they can clean up State Fair Music Hall '70 with L.A. Woman etc. that would be an awesome release Long Beah Honolulu
They can clean stuff up and make some pretty awesome releases Also their high water mark has been passed now already ........they had thousands 'interested' in 2001 of whom many many were dissillusioned by poor service/high prices and broken promises and now have gone probably never to return.................they are not going to interest thousands more with 30 year old bootlegs sold via a collectors label at extortionate prices........even if they did a mainstream retail release at 7 or 8 pounds they would not sell it in the quantities they need to make a viable release........... The market now can be measured in hundreds now not thousands....
If they make an outtakes cd with good songs, it will sell in thousands. As for concerts, if people once again catch the "Doors fever," they will sell
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jul 12, 2006 22:23:16 GMT
If they make an outtakes cd with good songs, it will sell in thousands. As for concerts, if people once again catch the "Doors fever," they will sell Don't get me wrong as I would like to see Doors records selling millions not thousands but this is simply blind optimism .....the facts speak for themselves......when Detroit was released (the best BMR disc) it was well publicised in the Brit press and is currently available in HMV and Virgin stores for a reasonable price.....it still sold very poorly......even with the groundswell from the internet..........the Doors fever is dissapearing fast.....I have seen it this last 5 years hundreds of Doors fan sites.... gone....dozens of excellent message boards that were far superior to LL........ gone.... Fans who were active on the net...gone in the hundreds...... a disc of out takes is not gonna interest the mainstream Doors fan no matter how well its presented.......... A decent live disc might but their options are limited....... They can clean up Miami '69 (they did it with Five to One from that concert) Miami would be an awesome release especially if they included trial stuff. Vancouver was sound board i believe CD covering PBS critique show (or even just an DVD concert thats not spliced up lke Soft Parade) Martix shows are highly marketable Seattle Felt Forum 1 and 2 If they can clean up State Fair Music Hall '70 with L.A. Woman etc. that would be an awesome release Long Beah Honolulu Miami was just the version from the bootleg I do not believe they cleaned that up...........Liquid Night is a very good version of Miami......I doubt Miami would interest too many people even with the tiral footage which is not a lot...... The Seattle/Vancouver recordings were not soundboards just very good recordings using a tape deck made by the roadie Treanor at the gig........ Dallas 70 would hardly be a great one for a mainstream audience as Jim is piss drunk.......cleaning up boots like Dallas/LB/Honolulu would cost a lot of time and effort not to mention cash and would never recoup the effort put into it..........also the farce that the Matrix has generated would apply to them as well........where would they get a decent tape to clean up? They already have soundboards of the AL shows so that takes less work and money to make release quality........their problem is who buys this stuff...which is why BMR got dumped and why BMA is dragging its heels....Philly sold very poorly and they have shelved any more 2006 releases......this new box is only gonna be a limited edition........if they sell 10,000 they will have done marvelous..... The fan base is not there anymore.........a few years ago it was but its not anymore............Legacy was trumpeted as the Ultimate Doors collection and it bombed....even with COTL on it to entice those that already had everything.........a live album would have to sell more than a coupla thousand to make it worthwhile.......... For me The Doors best hope is internet downloads ....I find it sad to say but The Doors as a force selling LPs is long gone........the 6 albums still sell steadily and a best of like the 1980s double still sells but the 'public' will not buy outtakes and poor live gigs.........and its the public they need to make it all worthwhile.........why do you think Jampol keeps coming up with polls and excuses to put releases back.........they know they have blown it ....Philly was a test of the water and it was not quite what they hoped for.........the years of lying and deceiving fans has come back to haunt these people........... I will be surprised if they release anything in the first half of 2007 as they know BMR is a dead weight round thier necks.....if this 40 year LMF fest does well maybe in the autumn of 2007........... We will not see gigs like Honolulu or Miami on BMR/A or Elektra....maybe a download but only as the same quality as the boots...................spending money cleaning these 3rd and 4th generation tapes up would be a non starter......... My gut feeling is that they will dump BMA in the same way they dumped BMR unless a miracle occurs and Jeff Jampol can pull a few thousand customers out of his fat ass..............
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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 13, 2006 13:49:13 GMT
What about Essential Rarities?, besides the Pacific Studios? demos, It was a very good tape. It had whiskey mystics and men who scared you and some other good stuff. That release, i believe sold in the thousands. I disagree with internet downloadsbeing thweir last hope. They are better off slowly releasing concerts on asmall scale than doing internet downloading. Here is why: They'll sell each song for say $1 a piece (i they do it through iTunes, it would be best). So me and my twenty friends each download 1 song and email all our other friends the song we bought. If instead we bought a cd, it would be much harded to share. I would like to see very rough songs available for download. They should post unusable songs (marketwise) for fans to download for free.
Peace
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jul 14, 2006 9:17:09 GMT
I have seen Essential Rarities the odd time in shops here but I can't recall seeing it ever being anything spectacular ............it was an Elektra release of the best of the box set and selling 'thousands' worldwide would not have encouraged Elektra to put out more. I don't imagine they will flog everything as downloads but it costs money to tart these things up and if the market is not there which it clearly is not then that outlay is not worth the trouble. Lets face it .....if The Doors were able to command a decent global market then Elektra would be putting stuff out....the fact thay ain't tells its own story.........Legacy was a good set but did not attract customers..........The Doors will always sell a steady stream of albums each year ...the debut and LA Woman especially along with the decent Best Ofs but the point I make is that the band no longer have a market for the speciality release.....BMR started well but was never marketed properly and customers were treated like shite and dissapeared in droves.........live gigs and out takes are of interest to only a small percentage of the Global Doors audience. The signs are there....Philly sold poorly......evidence for this? The fact the manager said that 2 new releases would appear in 2006 and now we see them put back to possibly 2007....... the out take disc is now on the back burner for 2008? BMA is mirroring BMR .............a series of excuses and downright lies followed by BMR being put on hiatus because something else wonderful is discovered....followed by it being forgotten............ If BMA does not turn a profit I fear it will be dropped like BMR........the download option may well be all we are left with in a couple of years.......... It is an undeniable fact that The Doors fan base is shrinking........the internet tells this story perfectly........so if the fan base is dissapearing then its obvious that the potential customer base for BMA is shrinking too............ Its a sad fact but it IS a fact! This fantasy some fans on the net are selling that somehow a $150 box set of 12 albums featuring two copies of the same record and a few oddities and videos that have already been released is gonna be sold in Walmart and shops all over the US and the rest of the world and is gonna be snapped up by Doors fans smacks of desperation to me......if the box sells more than a few thousand copies it will be amazing.......... I been a fan nigh on 40 years and I won't buy it? Why..............because its a half assed bullshit effort to screw me as a fan out of £100........and I ain't that dumb........
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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 14, 2006 13:36:24 GMT
I guess they should change BMA's name. The bright midnight has ended. Its over.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jul 14, 2006 13:49:46 GMT
Sad but true mate............Danny Sugerman's great idea has been hijacked by imbiciles.............
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Post by prodigalson on Jul 15, 2006 3:33:11 GMT
Wow, you guys got some strong opinions. That's cool, but maybe you're blowing it out of purportion.
Yeah, the Doors presense online has dwindled online, but I don't think BMR/BMA or thier management had anything to do with that. Classic rock in general has been fading away recently. A sad trend in this Pop music controlled world we live in. I don't think the 21st Century Doors vs. Densmore helped a whole lot though. What a travesty that shit was. D21C just kinda reminded me of a circus act in more ways than one, but that's neither here nor there.
On BMA...I'm sure Sugerman being sick had alot to do with why it never took off properly. Who doesn't remember their mission of 6 releases a year for 6 years. 36 releases would be cool, but who knows, it might've been 20 interview CDs included in that total. 6 years was a short term business plan... Hopefully (cross your fingers) BMA can last a bit longer than that since Jampol does seem to take advice from the fans.
Jampol isn't that bad. He's not greedy, he just doesn't seem to know the product as well as he should. I too am shocked by what little he knows of what's in their own vaults , but he is never as defiant as Sugerman could be. I used to talk to Sugerman off and on for a couple of years and the fans really pissed him off alot. He'd open up to fans then they'd shit on him so he'd go back to hiding. Jampol has never done that, and he seems very eager to please. I think he earnestly wants the Doors to be super popular again and he's trying hard from what I see. I'm looking forward to the documentary, book, and boxset. If BMA has to be on hold for those, then that's okay. I burned out on the Doors myself for awhile, so I don't want an oversaturation of new product.
And I believe the new boxset will be better than you make it out to be. If you have heard the DVD-A disc of LA Woman you will understand. It's truly a masterpiece. I ache to hear the rest of the albums in this manner.
I'm not trying to be an apologist, but he hasn't really fucked hardcore on anything yet. Alot of the problems with the Doors is shit he adopted from previous management.
It's now my personal mission to try to get you to have some faith in the Doors again. Futile? maybe, but it'll be fun chatting with you guys anyhow.
Take it easy fellas.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jul 15, 2006 9:18:12 GMT
Well I disagree that it's being blown out of proportion as if we as fans do not bring stuff like this up then all there is ever gonna be is the backslapping of places like the Official Forums.......... I was not trying to say that BMR was solely responsible for the demise of The Doors on the Net as obviously there are lots of reasons for the loss of Doors forums and sites but it has been a major influence as many people have made that very point to me personally............. The dork fiasco as well was another major reason and both have cast the three ex Doors in a really bad light and made them seem shabby, greedy and like cheap hustlers out to milk both Morrison and Doors fans......... I do not say stuff like this for a laugh as I have been a fan of this band for three quarters of my life and for most of that time had complete faith in what they said ............... the fact that has gone from guys like me should really concern these people but they seem to not really give a shit ..........their manager is indeed a liar and I know this from my personal dealings with this person over the last two years and his Jovial Jeff LL act does not fool me one bit. His performance in recent weeks where he has turned loops to shut fan criticism up has been highly amusing but is ultimately a sad reflection of the Bright Midnight of 2001 ................ Personally I have NEVER 'burned out on The Doors' and never will........ I have lost faith in the people they are NOT the band ........... I love the music whether it be Doors or their solo projects but never again will believe in them as individuals like I used to.........
And I bought the DVD of LA Woman when it first appeared in 2000 and I agree the sound is really good....even thru my cheap stereo but why does such a box set need the 'classic mixes' of the album? Why does it need to be 12 discs? Why could a decent bunch of out takes and rarities NOT be included in a 6 DVD set of The Doors......... Now we hear that a rare film of Crawling King Snake from the LAW session is available but talk is of including a lot of material from the already released videos........... It seems to me from what I see that this box set is being made up on the hoof to shut up dissenting fans........ its been in the planning stage for years but still manages to smack of a half assed effort designed to fleece the fans....... Since BMR was dumped thats all we have seen ........ Legacy with COTL was a bloody rip off...... Philly was cool but the farce behind its release with Boston being on the table than withdrawn due to an out cry on the LL along with the complete farce of The Matrix shows that these people do not really have a clue what they are doing............. There is no coherent plan that seems to be able to survive a week on the LL............. Fans are entitled to question the competency of managemnet and the integrity of The Doors organisation itself.......... Vegas shows, the dork farce, suing each other, insulting Doors fans,selling fans what they already have again and again and a general feeling of complete and utter incompetence at management level have eroded the fan base and left Doors fans wondering what on earth is happening to their fave band............ The book the film and a chance to hear some of the wonders in the vault are great but its what goes on behind these things that leaves the bitter taste in the mouth......and that is both worrying and sad to me as a Doors fan....
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Post by hungryhippoo on Jul 18, 2006 18:35:51 GMT
like 90% of the boxed sets' "outtakes" are already out there in unofficial recordings. my guess is that Jampol/ FF are still on a mission to "stamp out" the bootleggers and we're getting the shortend of the stick because of it.
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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 18, 2006 18:50:26 GMT
Jampol isn't that bad. He's not greedy, he just doesn't seem to know the product as well as he should. I too am shocked by what little he knows of what's in their own vaults , but he is never as defiant as Sugerman could be. I used to talk to Sugerman off and on for a couple of years and the fans really pissed him off alot. He'd open up to fans then they'd shit on him so he'd go back to hiding. Jampol has never done that, and he seems very eager to please. I think he earnestly wants the Doors to be super popular again and he's trying hard from what I see. I'm looking forward to the documentary, book, and boxset. If BMA has to be on hold for those, then that's okay. I burned out on the Doors myself for awhile, so I don't want an oversaturation of new product. Take it easy fellas. Well, "prodigalson" you are either Jeff Jampol, his mother or his hippopotamous lover (in which case i didnt know hippos could type) The Doors have become nothing more than a joke that every once in a while pops on "oldies" radio. The time is hot for classic rock. Turn on the tv. You hear the Who, Led Zeppelin etc etc. Beatles are back on the rise to popularity Rolling Stones played the Super Bowl- the most watched venue ever (and sucked by the way). Classic Rock is on the rise. The Doors should be sharing that glory. We should have new STUDIO releases that people would like, like Build Me a Woman, Who do you love, Away in India etc. etc. The Doors need to get teenagers excited about their music! How? New releases of old studio songs. New television concerts. Drop Ian Assbury and find someone who can sing. There is nothing wrong with a new band, Pink Floyd picked up the pieces after Syd Barret left (they werent as good but they still played) If Krieger and Manzarek could find a talented singer, whose voice actually emulated Morrison's they'd be in good shape. A real come-back tour. BMA rots. Its so lame. Philly was a joke. It didnt have to be Matrix releases would rock. What the Doors need to do is have their music played in movies or TV shows. That wouldn;'t be selling out like giving their music to commercials would. Peace
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Post by thebadcowboy on Jul 19, 2006 8:35:37 GMT
how can a real come back tour be possible without morrison and densemore......? if yuh want a singer to emulate morrison go and see a good doors tribute band a la bootleg doors...... astbury has "je ne sais quoi" i may be wrong but dont the band get payed to have their music in movies also....!!!! Drop Ian Assbury and find someone who can sing. There is nothing wrong with a new band, Pink Floyd picked up the pieces after Syd Barret left (they werent as good but they still played) If Krieger and Manzarek could find a talented singer, whose voice actually emulated Morrison's they'd be in good shape. A real come-back tour. BMA rots. Its so lame. Philly was a joke. It didnt have to be Matrix releases would rock. What the Doors need to do is have their music played in movies or TV shows. That wouldn;'t be selling out like giving their music to commercials would. Peace
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Post by cobriaclord on Jul 19, 2006 14:52:02 GMT
1rst of all, Densmore is not integral to the Doors and never was. I think that they could do a good job finding someone who looks and sings like Morrison. Just to cover songs. I dont understand french or whatever language that it.
Not sure if they get paid with movies, but it isnt really selling out. When you watch a commercial with say a Who song playing, the next time you hear that song, say on the radio, you think of the commercial. Its different with movies.
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