Ray talks to Modern Recording & Music 1984

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

From Monks to Morrison

As former keyboardist and founding member of The Doors - one of the most influential rock'n'roll groups of the formulative and turbulent '60s - Ray Manzarek's reputation precedes him as a manical rock'n'roller. Some 20 years later, Doors records continue to reap laudable sales as they are discovered by each new generation of rock fans. A newly released LP, Alive She Cried (Elektra) - containing previously unreleased, live Doors material - will undoubtedly garner even more listeners. Parasitic films such as the recent Eddie and the Cruisers keep alive speculation on whether Jim Morrison is truely dead or whether he's residing in Africa in obscurity. What did occur in Miami? What happened to the lost tapes - now found and used on the aforementioned Elektra release - Which contained rare footage of The Doors live in concert at the Aquarius Theatre in Hollywood?
Therefore, it came as a surprise when Manzarek's most recent solo endeavor was a jazz/rock interpretation of a classical cantata, written in 1935 by the late German composer, Carl Orff. The cantata, Carmina Burana (A&M), was originally based on the poetry of 13th century "drop out" Latin monks, who left the Medieval clergy to roam the countryside drinking and enjoying the pleasures of the flesh that had been forbidden in the celibate, cloistered life of the monastery. Orff transformed the writings into invocations and profane chants, accompanied by instrumentation and magical representations.
Manzarek believes, however, that this should come as no surprise whatsoever. According to him, the monks were expressing the same thing that Morrison and The Doors were expressing in the '60s and what he's expressing today; the meaning of being alive and the pleasure of the moment and life. Working with renowned composer Philip Glass, Manzarek contemporized the piece for the 1980s.
Musically, the emotionally stirring quality of the dark and haunting piece is primarily attributable to it's minor overtures, which are readily apparent in Manzarek's keyboard style, in The Doors' music, in the blues that so heavily influenced Manzarek while growing up on the south side of Chicago, and in the Polish/Russian music that is part of Manzarek's Slavic roots. The emotion of the human voice was treated as an instrument rather than a vocal performance.
Manzarek took the time to speak with MR&M in his living room in the hills overlooking Hollywood. He discussed his solo work, working with Glass, who his audience is, his time with The Doors, his friendship with Jim Morrison, his work as record producer of the critically-acclaimed underground rock group X, and his outlook on life.

Modern Recording & Music: Your newly released solo album, Carmina Burana, doesn't seem like it was undertaken as a commercial venture, but as an artistic endeavor.

Ray Manzarek: It isn't a party album, no. But you can still dance to it. I figure it will take a while for people to get used to it and get into it. But the piece itself has a long life. It has been performed repeatedly since 1937. And I think my interpretation of it will have a long life as well. I really don't know what commercial is. What is commercial? To me, commercial is something that a lot of people like. If a lot of people like it and buy the record, it's commercial. If a few people buy it, then it's not commercial. If people like it is the important thing. I would like a lot of people to like it, but if only a small group of people like it, that's okay too. I enjoyed doing it. I really enjoyed doing it. It was lots and lots of fun. Philip Glass was great to work with. All the guys on the record are really good musicians, engineers and producers. First and foremost, the person making the record has to have a good time doing it. Then hopefully the people hearing the record will also have a good time listening to it. That's what I'm hoping for.

MR&M: Don't you think that an interpretation - even a jazz/rock interpretation - of a classical cantata will put a few rock fans, in particular Doors fans, into culture shock?

RM: Let's hope so. But I don't think that this is a cultural piece. I think this is an apocalyptic piece. I think this is a piece of music for the end of the world. I think rock fans - in particular heavy metal people - can really get behind this record and understand it. I think they can understand the power of it. When I made this record, I didn't want to exclude anybody or do any kind of big-deal intellectual trip. This music is for the end of the world, the apocalypse. These are sounds you will hear when the apocalypse comes.

MR&M: So, you're comparing the dark underworld of the monks in the 13th century to the dark underworld of rock 'n' roll?

RM: Yes, exactly! Exactly. That's perfect. That's exactly what's going on. It's representative of the dark underside where all the devils and demons live, but also where the power to create is and where the power of the planet to create life is. Life comes out of the mud, out of the ooze and the muck. That's where life comes from. You inject electricity into the muck and life forms. That's the dark underside. Carmina Burana and rock 'n' roll represent the same thing. Ozzy Osborne is the dark side, a little overly theatrical, but nonetheless the dark side. He's been wallowing in the mire for some time now, so he could use a little sunlight in those dark corners.

MR&M:So, rather than evolving, art moves in a circular pattern, always returning to the same basic premises?

RM:Circular, circular. The first cut on the album is called "Wheel of Fortune" and that's what happens. Things go around. They don't go in a straight line. They go around and then they disappear for a while, but they come back. Around and around.

MR&M: So art never changes?

RM: Technology changes. That's what changes. The monks who wrote this stuff in the 13th century were writing about the same sort of thing that we're writing about today and that Morrison was writing about in the '60s. It's the same kind of revelry - drunken revelry, just reveling in life; love, sex, drinking, wandering, springtime, drinking. It as the same back then, the same in the '60s and it's the same today. The only thing that has changed is that we now have tape recorders and electric lights and a television set. You can have this printed in a newspaper. Back then, it was all done by hand and that's all they had. Technology changes, but the needs of humanity don't.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

MR&M: You're mentioned "the power" of Carmina Burana? What is that power?

RM: The spiritual power, not in a religious sense, but meaning the power of the sprit; the spirit that animates your body.. the soul, if you want. It's what leaves your body when you die. If somebody dies, the body is there, but the sprit - the power - has left the body. And it's the power of all creation, the spirit of all creation.

MR&M: Is Carmina Burana your legacy?

RM: I don't know exactly what to tell you. The moment is infinite, but the moment is the moment. Pleasures of the flesh are so immediate. It's the only thing that exists, but at one in the same time it's lasting. Life is immediate and infinite. Not being concerned with what's going to happen to you. We all have things we need to take care of, but living is for the moment. It's exactly the same thing that Morrison was talking about. This is like Doors' music; living for the moment and for the here and now. Just really living life to the fullest, enjoying it here and now.

MR&M: That's what it touched in you?

RM: Yeah. I've always wanted to do the piece. I've enjoyed it for a long time and I came to the conclusion that I would do it two or three years ago. I got the music and was sitting at the piano reading it and I thought, "Gee, this is perfect. This rocks out. This is classical music, but it rocks out. It can be done with drums, bass, electric guitar and synthesizers with an entire chorus on top of it." I did the entire symphonic part electronically, generated by synthesizers.

MR&M: Are listeners ready for this?

RM: They're ready for it. They are ready for it.

MR&M: But is radio programming ready for it?

RM: Radio programming is almost ready for it. The more adventuresome radio programmers - certainly KNEC [Los Angeles] and others like them - are ready for it. KMET [Los Angeles] and KLOS [Los Angeles] need it. They need to find a direction for a little bit more mature person who still enjoys listening to rock 'n' roll. If they turn their backs on this and say, "No, no, no. We can't play this," then they're turning their backs on their adulthood. But it's also music for kids, because the kids are going to get off on this. They're open to a lot of things. They know the apocalypse is coming. They know that the shit might hit the fan at any moment.

MR&M: You certainly seem to have a pessimistic look on life.

RM: No, no, no! Don't put me down as a pessimist - negative. I'm not a pessimist. Don't say that Ray has a pessimistic, gloomy outlook on life. I don't want to read that. No! It's coming, but it doesn't have to happen. But I'll tell you that the only way to stop it from coming is to dance madly, to dance wildly and to celebrate life, to go into drunken orgies of wild celebrations of life. And what could be more fun? What could be more fun than having a real orgiastic wild celebration. And not in a negative, sexual sense. "Oh, Manzarek wants orgies..." Well, yeah, Manzarek does want orgies. Exactly. Yeah, right. I want big, joyous, in-touch-with-the-earth orgiastic drinking and love-making. I think we could use a lot more of that, especially in America. If we could just get that kind of action going in America and Russia, I think everything would be just fine.

MR&M: The Doors' approach - as well as your own approach - to music is extremely intense and serious. Yet people are so caught up in the vicarious thrills of speculating on such matters as whether or not Jim Morrison is alive and well in Africa. Movies like the recently released Eddie and the Cruisers overly make reference to that legend. Does that superficially bother you when you're putting so much of your soul into the music?

RM: As Jim always said, "Just listen to my words. Just listen to my words." Naturally, people are going to be attracted to Morrison's persona. I can't fault them for that. What happened in Miami? Is he really dead? Did he disappear? Those are sensational aspects of the guy's life. It all happened and it's fine if you're intrigued with that. But you really aught to know what he was talking about, what the words are about. I can't fault people, but I wish they would get into the music and the words, so they could get into the reality of being alive, to being on this planet. I think it's a hell of a lot more important for them to get into realizing what the power is that makes a tree grow. They may say, "Who cares man? I don't care what makes trees grow." Well, you had better care about that, because that same power that makes a tree grow is the power that animates me and you. So, there's a lot more to life than Eddie and the Cruisers.

MR&M: I suppose that most people are just sad that he died so young and wish they could resurrect his creativeness through fantasy.

RM: He lived a very, very full life. It's the intensity with which you live your life that's important. People could live for 85 years and it's all mashed potatoes and marshmallows. Yuck. Who cares? You've got to grab life and live it; live it fully, madly, wildly and fall in love with it. I'm not promoting angel dust madness, that's just "kookooness." I'm talking about a heightened state of consciousness through intoxication and being madly in love with life. That's what it's about.

MR&M: Do you miss the craziness of your days with The Doors?

RM: No. I didn't particularly like the craziness while it was going on and I certainly don't miss it now. What I do miss is the intensity of performing with Jim Morrison, John Densmore and Robby Krieger. The kookooness was peripheral stuff that nobody really liked. It's part of the game, but it's certainly not what you play the game for. We played the game to be able to get on stage and play our music and to get into a recording studio and play our music and have people appreciate our music. It got to the point where people in the audience were having the same kind of emotional experience that we were having on stage. We had this real communion of soul and spirit that was locked into the music. That's the part that I miss.

MR&M: One of your other projects has been producing X. Why did you get involved with X? Is that same substance in their music?

RM: They believe in their music. They believe that what they say matters. They believe that it isn't just entertainment. It is entertaining, but it isn't just entertainment. What they are saying the way they're playing means something to them and they want it to mean something to the audience. They're talking about life. They're talking about feeling alive. They're talking about exactly the same thing that the monks were talking about, that Carmina Burana is talking about, and what Morrison was talking about. We're all talking about the same thing - about being alive.

MR&M: What do you add to their sound?

RM: I'm just sort of quality control in the studio. I make sure that everything runs right and smoothly. I just try to get the best performance out of them that I can. They're really a wonderfully self-contained group and have it all together. As a matter of fact, as much as I enjoy working with them, they've got it down so well that they could produce their next album themselves. Billy Zoom is going to be a big producer some day. He's really wonderful in the studio and knows what he's doing. I can see him taking the reins. Billy is also totally on top of his instrument. I don't really have that much to do. I just get the best possible sound. X pretty much knows what they want to do. I'm just their ultimate cheerleader.

[TheWallsScreamedPoetry]

MR&M: Back to Carmina Burana for a moment. Was it difficult to translate a classical cantata into a jazz/rock interpretation of the piece?

RM: Oh sure, it starts off easy, but then - if you do the entire piece - you find places that get a little tricky and you have to negotiate the turns... piece number seven and things like that. Some time signatures are more complex to fit together within a contemporary rock,n.roll framework. Figuring out how to put the drum kit behind some of the songs became a little tricky sometimes. But for the most part we were pretty faithful to what Carl Orff put down on paper. We're playing Carl Orff's music and just electrifying it.. electrocuting it, perhaps.

MR&M: What do you think Carl Orff would have thought of your interpretation?

RM: I think Carl would really be behind it. Unfortunately, he passed on about a year and a half ago. But I think he'd be right with us. He'd understand it. He intended it to be a big and powerful piece. The fact that we've taken it and made it into 1980's music - while continuing the whole Gregorian chant tradition that he set up - I think he's love it. I think it would get him very, very excited. It would probably get him up and dancing.

MR&M: Since the lyrics were done in Latin - or Gregorian chant - it seems as if the chorus was treated like a melodic instrument, rather than a vocal.

RM: Yes, exactly. The voices should be treated as a melodic instrument. The voices are playing the melody. They're singing the melody in Latin, but it wouldn't really matter what language they were singing in. They could sing it in any language. It's just the power of the human voice. With 20 people - sopranos, altos, baritones and tenors - you're getting the full range of the human voice; high women, low men and everything in between. That's really strong and powerful. It has a lot of emotion to it. The Latin lyrics are something you shouldn't even pay attention to. It's the power of the voice that's important. You can read the translation if you want to get into that side of it. The lyrics also have something to say. But I think it's just a matter of letting the music and the sound wash over you.

MR&M: What is the significance of the Gregorian chants?

RM: I don't think they have anything to do with the album (laughs). You don't need to know anything about Gregorian chants to enjoy Carmina Burana. Gregorian chants don't mean anything to this album. On the other hand, they have a whole bunch to do with it. But that's something for you to go out and buy a couple of Gregorian chant records and to go to the library and pull out a couple of books if you're really interested (laughs).

MR&M: There is a striking similarity - such as the music's tendency to be done primarily in a minor overture - between Doors' music and Carmina Burana.

RM: Doors' music is minor as opposed to a lot of major. The Doors worked in major and minor. But you can hear a kind of moodiness in Carmina Burana. The same moodiness that exists in Doors music; pulsating rhythms, the same rhythmic sense of punching four - one, two, three, four - pulsating rhythm having to do with the flow of blood in the body and the pumping of the human heart.

MR&M: How did you get hooked up with Phillip Glass?

RM: We made a demo tape of three or four songs and they were sent around. Somebody at RCA Records in New York heard them - Nancy Jeffries, the wife of Kurt Munkacsi. Kurt Munkacsi and Phillip Glass are co-producers of the album. They've been working together for the last decade. Nancy gave it to Kurt and said, "Listen to this." Kurt listened to it and took it to Phillip and the two of them decided to do it. They came to Los Angeles to finish up the soundtrack for the Francis ford Coppola movie, Koyaanisqatsi, and while they were in town, they came over here. They thought the music was great and wanted to be involved. So I said, "Wonderful. You've got it. You're just the kind of people I want to work with." After we decided to work together, Jerry Moss, over at A&M Records, said he wanted us to do the record on A&M. We said, "Great, let's go."

MR&M: Did it take a long time to record?

RM: It took a while to put together. We started recording last year, during the first week in December. This is a winter project and it's appropriate that it's coming out now. That's where this music belongs. Anyway, between Phillip's schedule and my schedule, it took us almost a year to complete. We did some of it in L.A. and some of it in New York. We went back and forth, back and forth. Time added up and so did the expenses, unfortunately.

MR&M: Was your studio approach to Carmina Burana similar to the approach you took to recording with The Doors and in your other solo work?

RM: Different...much different. There was a lot of overdubbing on this, because each part had to be added separately; the string parts, the horn parts, etc. Our basic track was put down with piano, drums, bass and guitar. Then we just started layering on everything after that; all the solos and singing. So it took a lot more time to do it that way, as opposed to making an X record or some of the early Doors records. But basically, the recording technique used to make any record is pretty much the same. You have 24 tracks, you put the songs down and you mix it up.

MR&M: Did you have any formal training?

RM: Yes. I attended the Chicago Conservatory of Music. I studied with various teachers in Chicago; Bach and two-part inventions, although classical music really didn't hold that much of an interest for me while growing up on the southside of Chicago. The area was blues and rock'n'roll. When I first heard Muddy Waters, Jimmy Reed, John Lee Hooker and Howlin' Wolf, they just killed me...just killed me. It really touched something deep inside of me. It had a minor overtone, which was the black man singing the blues. The minor overtones of that music probably struck some Slavic core in me. It's the same kind of minor sense as in Polish/Russian music. It almost has a weeping quality to it. Well, black music had that same kind of weeping quality, yet it also had a rhythmic sense, and African sense of rhythm. Nothing mattered if it didn't have a strong rhythmic foundation. Gosh, when I heard that stuff on the radio, I was knocked out by it. That's what turned me from just playing regular piano into the rock'n'roll crazed, manical person that I am today.

MR&M: Can you describe your playing style?

RM: No, I can't. But I'll try. When I sit down at the piano, it's me. What I do is all the things that come out of my background. It's certainly blues piano and Bill Evans-influenced jazz piano. The piano player - I don't know what his name is - who played keyboards behind Chuck Berry on "Johnny B. Goode" and "Roll Over Beethoven" was very important to me. Jerry Lee Lewis and his piano style and Little Richard and his da-da-da-da piano. All my classical studies; doing my little Bach two-part inventions, Romanoff and Tchaikovsky. All that together makes up me. My Slavic background, Polish ancestry, growing up on the southside of Chicago with black blues and being exposed to psychedelic Venice Beach in Los Angeles. When I play, that's what I'm playing.

MR&M: What are your weaknesses and strengths as a musician?

RM: My weakness is that I don't do my exercises enough. No one ever practices enough. I feel that my strength is that I have a good intuition; a well-developed feminine side to my personality. I'm not afraid to be a woman or a man. Femininity touches both sides, my psyche and my psychological makeup. So I'm pretty intuitive...which I use as an excuse not to practice (laughs).

MR&M: What keyboards did you use to record Carmina Burana?

RM: A Steinway grand piano, a nine-foot concert grand; a Prophet, an OBX; an Emulator; a Fender Rhodes; a Hammond organ, and a tiny little toy synthesizer that Adam Holzman - the other keyboard player - picked up somewhere. I don't know where he picked up that damn thing, probably at a dime store. But we plugged that thing in and it sounded great too.

MR&M: Did any of the synthesizers serve as a primary instrument?

RM: No. We mixed it all up. Sometimes the Prophet would handle it, sometimes the OBX and sometimes the Emulator. We would switch around between those three. The Emulator - since it is actual sounds stored on a floppy disc - did a real nice job on the trombones, for instance. But string sounds can be obtained on pretty much anything. Sometimes we would mix all three of them together for string sounds. I like to use as many keyboards as possible, since we were doing orchestrations. Michael Reisman did a lot of that. He was sitting there with the orchestral scoring; we had the basic track, we had our singers and some solos that were necessary and then we started putting on the orchestral parts. We looked at the string parts and examined the violins, cello and bass. We figured out what the string parts were doing, which instrument would best approximate the sound of that instrument and whether or not we needed particular parts. Sometimes, we would just use the violins and eliminate the cello. Then we did the horns. Sometimes we'd use a combination of the Emulator playing the trombone part and the Prophet or the OBX for the trumpet sound. Sometimes we would just make up sounds and not really try to approximate the instruments. That was a great deal of fun. That's a great way to work.

MR&M: Were you reveling in the studio?

RM: We were really drinking, wenching and recording.

MR&M: What boards were you using?

RM: We used a Trident board over at A&M to record and mixed on a Neve Necam automated system over at Capitol here in Los Angeles. That was wonderful. We had UREI timealign speakers. We also used Yamaha MS10s, just because they are small. They were actually a little bit too edgy for me. You have to paper off the cone a little bit to keep some of the brightness down. We had Studer machines. We also recorded at Greene St. studio in New York. They had the Fents Jazz band come into the studio. John "Bev" Jones and Joe Chiccarelli were the engineers. The machines at both A&M and Greene St. were MCI and both places had Trident boards. That's why we recorded at Greene St. We were able to keep the same boards and tape machines. Then we mixed it on the Necam.

MR&M: Any special effects?

RM: Not really. We used live echo chambers. That's one of the reasons we worked over at Capitol, because they have some live echo chambers. Rather than plate, we put the voices into the live echo chambers. We had two tracks of voices and sent them off into the live chamber and that was real nice. Just light noise generators on the snare. Pretty much regular stuff. I mean, the piece is so big that it didn't need a hell of a lot of fleshing out.

MR&M: Are you going to tour?

RM: I don't know. We might. It's such a big piece that it would be hard to take on the road. And damned expensive. That's why we're going to do a video opera instead. It's in the works. The script is by Louis Valdez. Zoot Suit and Kit Fitzgerald will do the videography. I think it will be very, very exciting and a real trip. We want to expand the boundaries of rock videos. In the meantime - since that will take another six months to put together - we're going to release a single - a three-and-a-half minute rock video for MTV, Nite Flight, MV-3 and all the other places that show short videos.

MR&M: Will you be able to catch the tone of the album in three-and-a-half minutes?

RM: Well, we'll capture a portion of it. You'll get a wham bam trip through heaven and hell (laughs).

MR&M: Do you really feel that your audience is limited to heavy metal fans?

RM: I would think that this album is idea for anyone in the 28-on-up age bracket; people who were around in the '60s or early '70s. I think that a lot of them kind of outgrew rock'n'roll, and this album is perfect for all those people. I hope that the 28-to-45-year-old age bracket - people who still like music, but don't really find themselves hearing a lot to like in rock'n'roll - are going to hear Carmina Burana and say, "Yeah, that's the kind of music I like." I'm from that generation. I was there in the '60s and this is the kind of music that I, Ray Manzarek, personally like to listen to. This is my music, the kind of music that I want to make. Hopefully, the other people from that era will plug into it. I also think young kids are going to get off on it in the apocalyptic sense. Heavy metal people will understand the end-of-the-world sound of this record. The older - I hate to call them older, but let's face it, they're older than 14 - kids will also be able to get off on it. Because it has something else to it rather than just simple entertainment. You can dance to it, but this dancing means something. We can get down on the planet and dance. I think it's going to cut across a wide area, certainly college students. I meant this album is ideal for college people. That is the gain market. People in college and graduating from college.


From Monks to Morrison
By Vicki Greenleaf
Modern Recording & Music, March 1984