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Post by stuart on Jan 3, 2005 19:12:42 GMT
While reading P Butler's book"Angels Dance And Angels Die" one thing that i have always been doubtful of is that on page 162 it is reported that CHERI SIDDONS said that the three of them(Ray, Robby And John) were going to Dump Jim From The Doors while he was in Paris.
One of the quotes on that page is"Well let's just dump jim and let's make an album without him. who's going to tell him?"
At Hearing this cheri was furious and said that she would tell him but it was never brought up in cheri's company again, again read page 162 and see what i mean.
No one else to the best of my knowledge has said this, Bill siddons has never said anything of that nature and ray,robby and john have never said anything, was not mentioned in any of their(ray and john's) respective books.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jan 3, 2005 19:21:28 GMT
I don't doubt it....it may well have been a topic of conversation between the 3 of them. You can hardly blame them Stuart. Jim was pretty much done with touring and even though they had rediscovered some energy to pull off LA Woman (I don't believe I just said that  )....its not certain at all that Jim would have returned as a Door.. The rumour that has been circulating for a few years is that the other 3 were auditioning Mike Stull as a replacement for Jim in early 1971. Mike Stull if you don't know was the guy Robby and John brought in to try to revitalise The Butts Band after the Brits jacked it in. Hear & Now was the album they made together and it was fucking awful. If Mike had linked up with The Doors it would have been a bigger disaster than Full Circle. Who knows what would have happened as Jim did not return and for me they made the right decision with Other Voices.....doing it as a 3 piece....  And its no surprise nobody has talked about it. The Myth was well on its way a week after Jims death and that sort of thing could have seriously damaged the money to be made in the next few decades....  |
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Post by jym on Jan 3, 2005 20:57:23 GMT
I think it was a case more of them knowing Jim wasn't interested in returning, not so much a case of them dumping him, but of him moving on
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Jan 3, 2005 21:06:17 GMT
I think it was a case more of them knowing Jim wasn't interested in returning, not so much a case of them dumping him, but of him moving on I would agree there as 'dumping' him was probably a bit of an extreme word to use. The Mike Stull story has only surfaced in the last few years and I have never heard of anything about it during the time of the Butts Band. I remember reading several articles about the 2nd Butts Band line up and don't recall any mention of Stull being touted for Jims job...I think that would have stuck with me somehow! I think Jim had pretty much done with the band and they were actively thinking of what to do next. AD&AD is a nice book to read but like many other Doors related books cannot be taken as some sort of Historical document.... |
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Post by darkstar on Feb 1, 2005 12:37:22 GMT
I don't believe Jim was dumped from The Doors, I believe after first giving notice in July 1968 he finally walked away in 1971 during the mixing of LA Woman. I came up with this theory after putting events in date order:
Break On Through - The Life & Death of Jim Morrison by: James Riordan & Jerry Prochnicky
p. 214-215
Waiting For The Sun was different from the previous two albums. They decided to devote one full side of the album to Celebration of the Lizard a 24 minute poem Morrison had written that had been evolving ever since the Doors recorded a section of it on their demo in 1966. Designed for the stage, the work was a bizarre mixture of Marat/Sade, theatrically, erotic rock, and neobeat poetics. It was to be Jim Morrison’s masterpiece. It was to be the coup de gras, the ultimate epic establishing the Doors as the artists of the age. Morrison had even planned on naming the new album after the song and wanted the cover printed in pseudo-snakeskin, with the title embossed in gold.
Almost from the beginning, the sessions began to go wrong. Morrison responded to the pressure by drinking more heavily than before. Now with Morrison tuning out, Rothchild felt he had to make up the difference. Very little could happen because Jim Morrison was the creative genius, the presence. He was the irreplaceable member.
Rothchild says the song took a long time to record because it was orchestral in design with many different sections, but some say this kind of perfectionism intensified Morrison’s drinking during the sessions. Rothchild disagrees, “Jim was really not interested. He wanted to do other things like write. Being lead singer of The Doors was really not his idea of a good time now. It became very difficult to get him involved in the record.”<br>
It was clear the group psychology of The Doors was changing. Though they were friends, The Doors were always more of a collection of individualists than a group. All four of them were essentially loners, preferring to keep to themselves rather than mix in with a bunch of people. They were not gregarious, open, or for that matter, very friendly people. Rich Linnell who promoted over twenty Doors shows and saw at least fifty, remembers: “The Doors were not the kind of people that you’d slap on the back or be jovial with. They had a sense of humor but they all are very private people. They liked to have their own space and they all kind of went their own way.”<br>
Morrison occasionally played practical jokes, but less and less with the other guys in the band, sensing that he was already stretching their tolerance. Ray and John were too uptight for that kind of thing anyway. Robby was loose enough, but he preferred staying in his own world and tended not to interact unless it was required of him. Morrison could be open and engaging, but he was moody as well and the social dynamics of the band gradually worked its way to the lowest common demoninator – communicating as much as it took to get the job done and sometimes not even that. “The thing that used to always strike me about The Doors,” Linnell continues, “was that they didn’t talk much among themselves. It was amazing how little communication they had offstage. Onstage they communicating brilliantly but offstage, even at the beginning, it was all nonverbal. I couldn’t figure out why nobody talked to each other. There was no camaraderie. They would kind of huddle up a little bit before going onstage just to get the set straight, but more times than not even that was by the seat of the pants. John and Robby would often come to the gigs together, but none of them were ever that warm with each other.” P. 216
Diane Gardner, The Doors publicist for many years, puts it more boldly: “They had a pathethic group psychology. I was usually very close to all my clients, but I wasn’t wild about The Doors. I didn’t even like Jim at first until later when I saw how charming he could be. The thing that bothered me about the others was how guarded they were. They didn’t strike me as being genuine. My other clients showed their warts and all, but they were very genuine.” (p. 216)
“We were worried he would do something inadvertently because he was drunk,” Manzarek recalled. “I stayed straighter than I might have. What could you say to him, ‘Jim, don’t have too many drinks. You’re killing yourself? He’d say, ‘It’s my life and I’ll do what I want.’ I think he felt things would turn around because we had so many incredible memories…..simply incredible gigs. It started to go wrong in 1968, but up until that time The Doors and everyone else were floating on a psychedelic cloud of just magic. The little by little, things started to go bad. And you didn’t want to think about the band things…to accept that the times had changed.” (p.217)
Finally Rothchild called Morrison over to listen to a roughly recorded dub of Celebration of the Lizard while Manzarek tried to explain that the song didn’t work. Manzarek was gentle, almost apologetic, as he pointed out that the song was simply too disjointed musically. All the various elements had by then been recorded and edited into one twenty four minute version, but only Morrison was happy with it. The other Doors and Rothchild considered the cut too esoteric to experiment with any further except for the most musically accessible section, Not To Touch The Earth. Rothchild suggested Morrison bring his notebook over the next day so they could work and Jim replied sort of despondently, “Yeah….sure.”<br>
Later, Morrison had this to say about the failure of The Celebration of the Lizard” It was pieced together on different occasions rather than having any generative core from which it grew. It doesn’t work because it wasn’t created spontaneously. I think there’s hope for it. We should go back to the very free concept and start the whole thing over. We can play it in a half hour version. It doesn’t really interest me that much, though. It was never pushed through and I kind of lost interest in it.” (p.224)
Rich Linnell elaborates: “The late sixties were a renaissance in music that had very little to do with what had gone on before. Today you can draw a straight line from The Doors, Led Zeppelin and The Beatles to every group we have right now. Alice Cooper could look back on the role model of Jim Morrison to learn from Jim’s mistakes and Alice wasn’t that far behind Jim. Jim had no one to look at like that nor did any of the rest of us when it came to learning how to deal with things. In retrospect, that was the biggest mistake. Having worked with a lot of artists since then, I learned the biggest lesson – to make sure your artist always has an out. Never paint them into a corner or make them feel trapped. Jim felt trapped. He felt there was no way out.” (p.236-237)
The Doors became public property and as triumph piled on triumph – hit singles, packed auditoriums, national media exposure – the underground drew back first I dismay, then in disgust. “Incredible” they thought. “The Doors, of all people had sold out. Morrison had allowed himself to be molded into a teen idol for 16 Magazine.” Something like this was the death knell in the sixties when everyone wanted to believe that communication and art were the only real goals for recording artists. Although he’d made very few concessions to commerciality, the public perceived The Doors as Jim Morrison and he was blamed the most for the shift toward Top 40. Although the rock press claim it was liberal, it had its own petty idiosyncracies and conventions and the critics were starting to question if a “legitimate poet could spout his visions of sex and death out of tiny car radios in between acne and Coca-Cola spots.” (p.251-252)
“I think most rock musicians and singers really do enjoy what they are doing,” Jim said, “It’d be physically unnerving to do it just for the bread. What screws it up is the surrounding bullshit that’s laid on them by the press, the gossip, columnists and fan magazines…..All of a sudden everyone is laying all this extraneous bullshit on his trip. So he starts to doubt his motivation. There’s always the adulators – they just jangle the sensibilities. So you feel a little sense of shame and frustration about what ‘you’ are doing. It’s too bad. It’s really too bad.
As if grasping for a last way out of the ever-expanding parody he was becoming of himself, Morrison decided to burst his own bubble. He saw the only way out and he took it. He walked into The Doors office and suddenly announced he was quitting the group. “It’s not what I want to do anymore,” he said. “It was once, but it’s not anymore.”<br>
Amid the openmouthed stares that greeted this remark, only Ray Manzarek was able to rise to the occasion. He talked with Jim, weighing out the various possibilities and ramifications of such a decision. In the end, Ray asked for and got six more months. It was probably the right decision for Manzarek and the rest of the group and it was definitely a plus for the millions of Doors fans. But though Morrison could reason out the logistics of a decision and make the right choice, he could not always live up to the committment.
No matter what his conscious, reasoning mind determined, there was something about Jim Morrison that always wound up doing exactly what he really wanted to do whether it was the right choice or not. He had given his word that he wouldn’t quit the Doors for six months. But inside, past the conscious mind, Morrison decided he would quit being a sex symbol. He began a rebellion against his own image, something he’d created but that was now out of control. He began searching for a new way to break through the trap that was slowly choking the life out of him – some monumental act that would free him of the sex symbol image forever.
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Post by darkstar on Feb 1, 2005 12:49:13 GMT
Jim didn't take his exit from the band in 1968 as he had wanted so with a seamingly now way out he would bring his departue on gradually which in the end enabled him depart in the spring of 1971.
I have a theory that I came up with a few years ago of what, in my opinion, lead up to the Miami incident. I believe Jim had tired of the rock star image and of carrying the weight of the bands' success. It was Jim that the press and the audiences came to see and I think the burden had become something Jim had begun to hate. This coupled with the facts of the "Buick Commerical" fallout tended to increase the stress and the fact that he in his own words couldn't get along with the other three band members as the tight unit they formed in 1965, all added up to a form of nervous breakdown. A breakdown that Jim had mentioned to Ray Manzarek in July 1968, when he told of how he didn't want to continue as a rock singer. Manzareks' response was, "just give it six more months." In six months The Doors appeared in Miami.
I believe Jim knew exactly what he was going to do in Miami and rehearsed it a few times prior to March 1, 1969. I do agree that the Living Theatre added additonal motivation but I believe Jim intensions were thought of before he attended the play at UCLA's Bolvard Auditorium.
December 14, 1968 The Doors perform at the L.A. Forum in Inglewood. During the performance and according to Greg Shaws' book, "The Doors On The Road," 'After the conclusion of Light My Fire there is a long pause before Morrison sits down cross legged on the stage and begins to ask the audience what they really want. Although he seems relaxed, there is a mocking and confrontational tone in his voice as he suggests that the band could play music all night long, but that what the audience really wants is 'something different' something more. He then leads the band into their Celebration of the Lizard incorporating lyrics that are quite different from the version finally released on the live album. The audience reaction is mixed. Some seem interested in the piece, others bored. A few aggravated patrons even bark out some obsecenities during the first portion of the song.
As tonight's rendition of Celebration of the Lizard draws to a conclusion each of the band members leaves the stage individually. First John Densmore inconspicously strolls off, then Robby Krieger unplugs his guitar and follows. Finally Ray Manzarek leaves, with Morrison alone onstage as he quietly recites the final poetic verses of the composition and then solemnly walks off the stage. The effect is transcendent. As opposed to the usual thunderous applause exhibited at the end of the show, the somewhat stunned audience of over 18,000 send out a brief ripple of quiet acknowledgement, and then stare mutely before leaving the venue in near silence.'
The Doors next gig was at Madison Square Garden, January 24, 1969. According to Greg Shaw, with the exception of the sound equipment having problems the show was well received.
On Feb 14, 1969 The Doors were scheduled to performance in San Diego. This show never took place.
February 25, 1969 found the band at Sunset Sound Recorders in Hollywood. This session would be known in the future as "The Rock Is Dead" session. From Shaws' book: "The engineers succeed in capturing more than half of the session, and what is captured on tape is a fascinating montage of musical styles underscored by Jim Morrisons' increasing disenchantment."
This session produces Rock Is Dead intermingled with Morrisons' improvised rant, "Listen I don't want to hear no talk about revolution, we're gonna have a good time. Let's roll. I'm talkin' about the death of rock and roll. The death of rock is the death of me." Could it be possible Jim was elanting to the death or end of his career as a rock star? Guess I'll really never know for sure.
February 24-28, 1969 the Living Theatre performances; Mysteries and Smaller Places, Frankenstein, Antigone and Paradise Now. "The theatre is not an imitation of life. It is life itself....this might well be a description of a Doors concert."
Following the Living Theatre performances, Morrison heads to Miami the next day to perform at Dinner Key Auditorium.
After reading the prior events in time-line fashion I came to the conclusion that Jim rehearsed his actions to put an end to the teeny-bopper, rock stardom he had at one time helped to create. I also believe Miami was the final turning point in showing the rest of the band what his relationship to them had become.
I noticed as I was reading Manzareks' book, Light My Fire, that after the Miami incident one finds themself almost at the end of the book. Only a few pages define March 1, 1969 through July 3, 1971. To me this indicates the decline in Manzarek and Morrisons' relationship by Rays' own admission in craming the last two and a half years into a small amount of text.
From The Doors In Their Own Words
Jim: “Being on stage, being one of the central figures, I can only see it from my own viewpoint but then I suddenly saw things as they really are, that I am, to a degree, just a puppet, controlled by a lot of forces I understand only vaguely.” (1969)
Jim: “For me, it was never really an act, those so called performances. It was a life and death thing; an attempt to communicate, to involve many people in a private world of thought. I no longer feel I can best do this music through concerts. The belief isn’t there.” (1969)
Ray: “The audience has changed; it was no longer the mystical, spiritual union between musicians and audience. That wasn’t happening anymore.” (1980)
Jim: “This trial, and its outcome, won’t change my style, because I maintain that I didn’t do anything wrong….It’s actually a very fascinating thing to go through, a thing you can observe. If I have to go to jail, I hope the others will go on and create an instrumental sound of their own, one that doesn’t depend on lyrics. Lyrics aren’t really that essential in music, anyway.” (1969)
Jim “I’d hate to think I’d stop having anything to do with music, but I think that in the future, I’ll tend towards an exclusive film involvement.” (1969)
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Post by darkstar on Feb 1, 2005 13:17:36 GMT
Alice Cooper could look back on the role model of Jim Morrison to learn from Jim’s mistakes and Alice wasn’t that far behind Jim. Jim had no one to look at like that nor did any of the rest of us when it came to learning how to deal with things. In retrospect, that was the biggest mistake. Having worked with a lot of artists since then, I learned the biggest lesson – to make sure your artist always has an out. Never paint them into a corner or make them feel trapped. Jim felt trapped. He felt there was no way out.” (p.236-237)
Although he’d made very few concessions to commerciality, the public perceived The Doors as Jim Morrison and he was blamed the most for the shift toward Top 40. Although the rock press claim it was liberal, it had its own petty idiosyncracies and conventions and the critics were starting to question if a “legitimate poet could spout his visions of sex and death out of tiny car radios in between acne and Coca-Cola spots.” (p.251-252)
Jim Morrison: “I think most rock musicians and singers really do enjoy what they are doing. It’d be physically unnerving to do it just for the bread. What screws it up is the surrounding bullshit that’s laid on them by the press, the gossip, columnists and fan magazines…..All of a sudden everyone is laying all this extraneous bullshit on his trip. So he starts to doubt his motivation. There’s always the adulators – they just jangle the sensibilities. So you feel a little sense of shame and frustration about what ‘you’ are doing. It’s too bad. It’s really too bad.
The Hollywood Bowl Peformance - July 5, 1968
Vince Treanor: "Everybody was called into a big meeting..... all the Doors, myself, Bill Siddons, and Kathy Lisciandro. Ray had worked out an elborate production idea for the show - having the band wear Kabuki masks and Oriental theatrical costumes with special lighting and dances......a whole theatrical production. It was very interesting with all this incredible shit going on before, during, and after the performance. But the other guys felt that it just wasn't The Doors. Jim didn't say much of anything. He didn't give a damn what they did. He didn't care if they had fire hoses onstage at that point. 'Just give me my microphone and do whatever you want to do.' Jim was pretty straightforward about what he wanted to do. 'Let's just get up there and do it.' None of the bullshit." (p. 255)
*(It must be noted that Jim dropped acid prior to this show.)
*(Following the Stockholm show Jim and Pam decided to fly to London and visit with Michael McClure while the rest of the band flew back to the States.)
Bill Siddons: "Jim had disappeared. For four days no one had any idea where he was and suddenly Buick was offering close to a hundred thousand dollars to use 'Light My Fire' in a commerical. It was going to be 'Come on, Buick, Light My Fire'. Since Robby was the actual writer of the song, I felt he should make the decision. For some reason it was a high pressure, 'You gotta give an answer now' situation, so together we all decided, 'Well, what the hell....why not? You know, we were all practically teenagers. I mean Ray was the old guy at twenty-five. And Jim came back a couple of days and just freaked out. He thought it was the tackiest thing in the world to do with The Doors' music. Subsequently, I figured out that he was absolutely right. Jim knew that for what The Doors were doing and for what the meant to people, it was the wrong thing to do. Obviously it didn't destroy their career, but it created a real anger in him that anyone would do that. It left a stronger division between Jim and the other three Doors. He felt betrayed by them because of it. And no one did it to betray him. We didn't know what to do and it was free money being dangled in front of us."
Columbus Courson: "Jim was mad as hell. He called Ray and said, 'Hell, this song will be a classic. We sell it in a damned ad, that'll be the end of it, nobody'll ever give it anything.' He was just furious and he hung up on him. And Pam said, 'Jim, he's your best friend,' and Jim was sort of violent....and she said, 'Well what do you think they're gonna do?' He said, "Don't worry, they're not gonna let their little goldfish swim away.'" (p. 270-271)
*(Following the European Tour in 1968 the bands' accountants advised them of the costs associated with "A Feast Of Friends and a special rider that had been added to all performance contracts.)
Frank Lisciandro (on A Feast Of Friends): "Robby, John, and Ray pulled the plug because the accountant had a bottom-line mentality about it. We were in the middle of the editing process. Paul (Ferrara) and I went to see Jim, who was staying at one of his infamous small motels somewhere. We said, 'What's going on? We're in the middle of this project, we've got most of it filmed, what are we gonna do?' He said, 'Don't worry about it. Just keep working. I'll take care of it.'"
Jim Morrison (describing the situation to Rolling Stone Mag): "In conception, it was a very small crew following us around for three or four months in a lot of concerts, culminating in the Hollywood Bowl. Then the group went to Europe on a short tour and while we were there, Frank and Paul, the editor and photographer, started hacking it together. We returned, we looked at the rough cut and showed it to people. No one liked it very much and a lot of people were ready to abandon the project. I was almost of that opinion too. But Frank and Paul wanted a chance, so we let them."
Frank Lisciandro (on putting FOF together): My editing space was a small room at the back of The Doors' office. Although the room was hot, cramped, and cluttered, it could not have been in a better location. If the film was about Jim and The Doors and how their music reflected and commented on America in the sixties, then I was fitting the pieces together right in the eye of The Doors' hurricane."
Jim Morrison (on seeing the Singer Bowl footage): "I was rather taken aback, because being onstage, being one of the central figures, I could only see it from my own viewpoint. But then to see things as they really were.....I suddenly realized that I was, to a degree, just a puppet, controlled by a lot of forces I only vaguely understood." (p.272-273)
Bill Siddons (re: special contract rider): "This group of men sent out a letter saying that The Doors were troublemakers and that, if in the judgement of the hall manager, the content of the performances was immoral, indecent, or illegal, the show would be ended immediately. So the promoters had to do a lot of pushing and fighting to get us into the halls. They had to give a personal guarantee that if anything happens, they, the promoters, would be solely responsible for it." (p. 272)
Los Angeles Forum Show Dec 14, 1968
Jim Morrison (in an interview after the Forum show): "I don't know what will happen. I guess we'll continue like this for a while. Then to get our vitality back, maybe we'll have to get out of the whole business. Maybe we'll all go to an island by ourselves and start creating again."
Vince Treanor (on Ray's choice of an opening act at the Forum show): "The guy was into traditional Japanese art music, poetic music. The stuff he played was young if it was two thousand years old and this was in front of eighteen thousand teenage kids. Well, they damn near had a riot, they booed the guy so bad. I felt horrible for him. It was just so irreverent and terribly rude and the guy could not help realize what was going on, but he was a traditionalist and therefore he had to finish his performance. And he went through to the bitter end." (p. 277)
*(January & February 1969 - "Touch Me/Wild Child" and "Wishful Sinful/Who Scared You" were released as singles. When the "Soft Parade" album was released in July 1969 writing credits were split individually between Morrison and Krieger with only one track as a collaborated effort of Morrison/Krieger unlike The Doors previous three releases where The Doors were equally credited.)
It has been said by a few self-appointed, "Doors Insiders" that people who read books about The Doors and/or Jim Morrison that are not written by one of the surviving Doors, are lacking the true perspectives of what "really" happened. I can't agree. I find that one who looks from the outside in towards the big picture can come to their own conclusions of what they do or don't believe by weighing the facts and evidence some of which the principals fail to admit for one reason or another. Maybe it is from embarrassment, non-judgmental reasons, adding or subtracting from the facts to paint the picture of themselves they want people to see, using one small incident and elaborating on it until it takes up several paragraphs or an entire chapter, or misinforming the reader of the true facts in favor of sensationalism bent on providing the author a hope in larger sales of their book. Regardless, the books and articles keep our interest in the Doors as the band they once were and the powers that be should be thankful for our interest as it can only benefit them.
I believe everyone has a right to express their opinions without the fear of deletion or reprisals. To me The Doors will always stand for the freedom to be yourself and not someone who is forced out or put down just because your opinion doesn’t fit in with what a certain majority believes. The inception of this message board has granted Doors fans a forum in which to express themselves and to me represents the true spirit of what the Doors once stood for and hopefully will stand for again in the future.
I believe in the end, like a lot of "Doors Fans" Jim Morrison was ready to move on in his life in pursuit of a new career. He was generous to those around him in granting "another six months." It still leaves a question that I can’t answer; was the additional six months worth it to Jim?
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Post by bluesunday23 on Feb 16, 2005 21:18:34 GMT
Once Jim left the states it was over, the band new it. Other Voices was recorded prior to Jim's death. Thats a fact
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Post by ensenada on Feb 18, 2005 15:47:16 GMT
was jim aware that they were auditioning someone else? what the fuck would he have said about that. even if he was having doubts himself, surely he would have been reaaly pissed off to find they made this decision without him.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Feb 18, 2005 17:01:33 GMT
was jim aware that they were auditioning someone else? what the fuck would he have said about that. even if he was having doubts himself, surely he would have been reaaly pissed off to find they made this decision without him. I doubt he would have been too bothered as I have always been of the opinion he was DONE with being a Door.....  I have done a lot of searching the net to find out more on this Mike Stull rumour but have never come across anything to support it........ The fact they were indeed (as Blue Sunday mentions) recording tracks that became part of Other Voices does indicate that they were aware Jim was not coming back to be a Door......of course it could have been just demos they were recording but they were 3 smart guys so I don't buy the 'Jim was delighted with LA Woman and looking forward to the next album' they have been touting for 30 odd years as part of the 'Morrison myth'..... dumped,sidelined, left...whats it matter Jim had recorded his last Doors album when he left for Paris as far as I'm concerned.... |
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Post by othercircles on May 10, 2005 19:47:35 GMT
I don't believe anyone had any serious intentions of dumping anyone. I think... had he lived, Jim would have returned to LA eventually. It might have been the next year. It might have been 5 years later. But he definately would have. I rather believe that after a year or so sitting around in Paris with no projects he'd get bored after awhile. And he would have drank away all his money. So the doors would have to make another album and maybe a tour to fuel his exesses for another year or two. The rolling stones have had this routine down to a science for the past 20 years. |
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Post by jym on May 10, 2005 20:25:57 GMT
One of the things Salli said on the LL (I believe) is that Jim was going to stay in Paris until his conviction was over turned & his asking an accountant about purchasing an old church to convert to a house, it has the ring of truth to me.
The Doors weren't like The Stones, more like The Dead if anything (as a model of a band), I think Jim was done with Rock & Roll, I think he would've pursued acting, Roman Polanski would be in Paris in a few years & after his conviction was overturned America would again be on the map for Jim.
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Post by jym on May 10, 2005 20:43:33 GMT
One more thing:
The Stones really didn't have the options Jim Morrison did, Jagger-had been in Ned Kelly (or would soon be) & bombed badly (there was also a recent film of Ned Kelly that didn't get to good of reviews so maybe it's the subject), & all the other Stones were musicians, so they had the need to keep The Stones going. Whereas, Jim Morrison had writing, and film either behind or in front of the camera. & as a matter of fact with Jim's taste in films I'm sure he was a big fan of the autuer movement in France headed by Truffuat & Godard, so for the films Jim probably wanted to make France was the right place to be.
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Post by othercircles on May 11, 2005 1:52:05 GMT
Mick Jagger had a number of good films dude.
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Post by ensenada on May 15, 2005 1:31:23 GMT
the only film i remember him in was that jack thing about the car that crashed into the bridge....it had emilio estevez (or whatever lol) in it. his acting aint brilliant....
i think the doors were recording the songs that would appear on the other albums (after jim) as demos, possibilities etc but of course i wouldnt have thought they were counting on jim returning for them. perhaps jim did metnion doing another blues album after la woman. perhaps jim figured on sorting somethings out about his physcology in paris and would then return?
i expect the members hoped he would return. i am sure they could see the bands end if jim didnt return.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 15, 2005 8:22:33 GMT
John recounts how Jim asked about LA Woman and sounded enthusiastic about its doing well and mentioning that they had to do another album....but then John recalls how strained Jim's voice sounded and that he thought then how he was rather hoping Jim did not return so quickly......
I think not only Jim was tired of The Doors but John obviously was mentally shattered and if truth be told I doubt Robby or Ray were exactly looking forward to doing all of that again in a hurry.
The shock of Jim's death probably galvanised them into Other Voices more to prove they were a band (and even the death of thier super-star singer could not change that) rather than any enthusiasm for an actual album. It shows in the follow up that thier hearts weren't really in it as the stories about who was to sing what and the bickering that went on.....
The fact that Other Voices was a bloody good album showed that the other 3 were as much the Doors as Jim but it also illustrated that The Doors were 4 guys and without ONE of them the band was damaged beyond repair......Ray said exactly that shortly afterwards...and he was right.......
From all my time as a Doors fan I belive that The Doors were probably actively seeking a new singer BEFORE Jim died and that as far as HE was concerned his time as a Door was done.......
It's still my conviction that someone like Howard Werth (who I favoured at the time) could have made a damn good jazz flavoured Doors album in 1973 but in hindsight Ray Manzarek was bang on in his assesment that The Doors were done without Jim Morrison.......
If ever there was a band that could not stand the loss of ONE member The Doors were a prime example....
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Post by othercircles on May 16, 2005 2:05:41 GMT
I disagree. I think they could have made more albums. It's only the end of what they percieved to be the only way the doors could exist. In which case they should never have made those two albums. What kind of hypocritical thinking is that?
It's the perspective thing. Instead of thinking about what they lost they should have thought of it as being a new band. They broke up cause they were finally fed up with each other.
Also, sadly the one reason alot of bands break up because record sales were down. What a dumbass reason to stop making records... seriously.
They and Elektra realized they werent going to match the sales they had with Jim and decided it wasnt worth it if they couldn't make lots and lots of money. And they still have that mentality to this day.
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Post by jym on May 16, 2005 4:23:44 GMT
It's simple, then why didn't they? Jac Holzman gave them their catalog because The Doors had made them so much money, if Elektra hadn't sold to whatever big company they did I think Elektra would've carried The Doors a few more albums to see what happens. It was a combination of all elements that closed The Doors, most especially Jim leaving the band.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on May 16, 2005 9:16:12 GMT
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Post by othercircles on Jun 18, 2005 4:15:17 GMT
It was a combination of all elements that closed The Doors, most especially Jim leaving the band.
If you call someone dying "leaving" then yea.
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