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Post by ensenada on Apr 17, 2005 21:09:41 GMT
been slightly inspired by doctor who for this thread but say i was a mad scientist and developed a time machine with the soul purpose of going back to the doors era with the idea of changing either the fate of the doors or the fate of jim... would you want me to change anything or leave it the way it was for jim and the doors?
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Post by thebadcowboy on Apr 17, 2005 21:17:15 GMT
leave it the way it was dude..... no apologies...... no regrets.....!
can you imagine if morrison did not disappear in paris...... and ended up an overweight deadbeat shitty singer in a bad lounge band....... we sure as fuck would not be here now.......!
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 17, 2005 21:45:46 GMT
BCs right....just go back...check out a few gigs....smoke some dope and leave it at that.....
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Post by ensenada on Apr 18, 2005 17:27:30 GMT
yeh i would settle for doin that!
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Post by jedi on Apr 18, 2005 20:32:45 GMT
Ooo, can I come?! There are so many things you could try and get away with!
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Post by foreverhere on Apr 19, 2005 4:11:55 GMT
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Post by eressie on Apr 19, 2005 4:43:09 GMT
Oh, don´t you people have a heart?! Am I the only one who would have wanted to pick him up from the gutter where his drinking buddies left him, to give him a hot meal, a warm bed and a well needed bath? And most of all, getting him OUT of the bath tub before it was too late.
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Post by foreverhere on Apr 19, 2005 5:50:42 GMT
Oh, don´t you people have a heart?! Am I the only one who would have wanted to pick him up from the gutter where his drinking buddies left him, to give him a hot meal, a warm bed and a well needed bath? And most of all, getting him OUT of the bath tub before it was too late. yes of course!!!!! i have a heart =( i defientely would. we should all stick togther and we should all do that. of course i would.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 19, 2005 8:04:19 GMT
Oh, don´t you people have a heart?! Am I the only one who would have wanted to pick him up from the gutter where his drinking buddies left him, to give him a hot meal, a warm bed and a well needed bath? And most of all, getting him OUT of the bath tub before it was too late. Sadly going back in time and 'helping' Jim Morrison survive Paris would probably have been the worst thing anyone who respected him could have done. In July 1971 he was a burnt out rock star dissillusioned and lost. His dreams of being a poet killed by his superstardom which he hated more than anything else. If he had lived and went home all he had to look forward to was either obscurity as a writer of poems nobody read or perhaps he could have went to Hollywood and written screenplays, maybe he would have found something inside to write the Great American Novel he talked about....maybe not, his other alternative was rejoin The Doors and sing 'Light My Fire' day in day out for 'the fans'........live life as a joke version of the man who set America afire with his passion and brilliance now an overweight oddity seen for his 'freak show' value rather than the power of his words...... The Doors were pretty spent and perhaps could have found it in them to make another clasic album like LA Woman but it could never have lasted and like so many classic bands that made so many classic albums The Doors would have drifted towards the obscurity that rewarded so many great acts from the 60s...... A bargain bin selection of albums in a corner of a record store nobody frequents, a quiz question that has you all thinking...'bugger me I know that' but you never can recall who it was. Thats more than likely the fate that Jim could have looked forward to had he lived.......of course he could have returned with a new vigour and went on to achieve more in the 70s than he achieved in the 60s.......but fate had a different design for him......in death Jim Morrison became 'immortal'.....something very very very few of us humans ever achieve......he became the face of a generation......and even more amazing a face of future generations.......his words live even today in young kids and old men like myself.... 40 years on from that day on the beach when he saw the dawn of The Doors with Ray, Jim Morrison is still remembered. He is remembered as a singer, a performer and as a poet. He is argued about and debated over in every corner of the globe by different generations of fans......reviled and deified as all good poets are......he is a T Shirt and he is an inspiration, he is a icon of the 20th century and an icon of the 21st century.....he will be an icon of the 22nd century..... His myth and reality will echo down the ages and he will 'be rememberd' long after most of those alive today are long ago forgotten...... So imagine you find yourself outside 17 rue Beautreillis on the evening of July 2nd 1971. You are someone who has the utmost respect for James Douglas Morrison poet, singer, performer, Door and frail human being. You see him walk out the door of his flat with Pam and you stand a few yards away from changing this mans life. You can walk up to him and you can save that life or you can walk away and leave him to the ages for all eternity. You love this man as all of us here do (or we would be on a Beatles board) You have the power to change his fate and condemn him to an uncertain future and an uncertain old age or you have the power to give him his 'immortality'... Heavy fucking shit...huh! What do you do? I have loved James Douglas Morrison for pretty much 3/4 of my life....... I know that I could not do anything else but walk away......I doubt knowing what I know that I could even walk up and ask for an autograph.....maybe find it in me to call 'hey Jim...how's it doing man!' from the other side of the road.....maybe walk up and shake the mans hand for the last time....but anything else would be beyond me..... I would walk away and let him 'die'...... 'death makes angels of us all'...... it made a legend out of Jim Morrison! Just goes to show being Dr Who is not always as much fun as you would think.....
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Post by eressie on Apr 19, 2005 9:23:50 GMT
I guess I did not express myself so well. What I meant was that if you had a time machine you could pick him up from the gutter a long time before Paris. Getting him out of the bath tub before it was too late was more meant as a metaphor and could fit in at any time in his life really before Paris.
A man like Morrison may not want to be "saved" and he most certainly knew where he was heading. Still, it would go against everything I stand for and believe in to leave him to die alone and ill if there was anything I could have done to prevent it. He was a human being with feelings and emotions like everyone else. And even if it had been to late, at least you could help him go out with some dignity.
I guess it is the nurse/caretaker/mother part of me speaking here.
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Post by foreverhere on Apr 19, 2005 9:43:52 GMT
TheWallsScreamedPoetry: you made me cry.
hah
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Post by thebadcowboy on Apr 19, 2005 10:12:23 GMT
alex has that effect on a lot of people ...... including this guy...............! TheWallsScreamedPoetry: you made me cry. hah
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Post by eressie on Apr 19, 2005 10:48:05 GMT
Let me tell you about an old boyfriend I had...
Toby was a great guy. He was funny, cute, friendly, wonderfully insane and he was a drummer in a rockband. He was a really good drummer, he had lots of talent. He was unfortunately also romanticizing and glamourizing drugs, alcohol and the general rockstyle up to the point I could not take it any longer. You think Morrison was wild? You should have met Toby...
We broke up, but remained friends. After some time he disappeard and I did not hear from him anymore. About a year ago, I read an acticle in a newspaper about homeless people in Stockholm and right there was a picture of Toby being interviewd about his life. He was now a homeless heroin addict. He had sold his drums, all his albums (he had tons of albums!) and everything else he had to get the heroin. His family had turned their back on him, he did not have any old friends left and he got fired from his job. Toby now tries to make living selling his poetry books in the streets.
It broke my heart to learn about his situation. I went out looking for him, I went all over Stockholm for days and talked to other homeless people, the cops and everyone I could think of, but he was nowhere to be found. If I do find him one day, what will I do? What can I do to help him? Does he want my help in the first place? Maybe there is nothing I can do to help him, but I know I will never forgive myself if there is something I could do and I did not try. Toby is not a living legend like Morrison, but they are both humans. I would not leave Toby in the gutter if I could do anything about it and I would not leave Morrison there either. If non of them wanted my help - so be it. But at least I would have done what I could instead of walking by them pretending not to see and leave them to die.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 19, 2005 12:26:48 GMT
I guess I did not express myself so well. What I meant was that if you had a time machine you could pick him up from the gutter a long time before Paris. Getting him out of the bath tub before it was too late was more meant as a metaphor and could fit in at any time in his life really before Paris. A man like Morrison may not want to be "saved" and he most certainly knew where he was heading. Still, it would go against everything I stand for and believe in to leave him to die alone and ill if there was anything I could have done to prevent it. He was a human being with feelings and emotions like everyone else. And even if it had been to late, at least you could help him go out with some dignity. I guess it is the nurse/caretaker/mother part of me speaking here. Jim DID go with dignity....he died in a bath with (some say) a smile on his face. He did not die on a toilet with a burger in his hands like Elvis or laid in his own puke like Jimi. The mystery of his death propelled him into a legend. We are still no nearer finding out what happened that night then we were in 1971. (although there are plenty of know alls who were thousands of miles away who will rent you a quote about thier arcane knowledge of it all) Jim and Pam were the only ones who really knew and they are gone. The myth remains and so does the legend. Going back to the day he told the band he was having a nervous breakdown or a day when he was laid piss drunk in the gutter picking him up and telling him he could change his fate.......what good would that do HIM! ? Given the choice of being a 60 year old drunk (ex drunk) who nobody gives a shit about or being an icon that inspires thousands everyday to write and sing and explore music and literature.....I somehow doubt Morrison would thank you for 'helping' him. He said it himself "I see myself as a huge fiery comet, a shooting star. Everyone stops, points up and gasps "Oh look at that!" Then— whoosh, and I'm gone... and they'll never see anything like it ever again... and they won't be able to forget me— ever. "And no one ever will.......the man deserves no less than that......
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Post by eressie on Apr 19, 2005 12:53:21 GMT
I do not call that going out with dignity and I doubt he would have ended up like you describe it if he had lived, but I do respect your point of view. I can´t force my help on anyone, just offer it. If he does not want it - so be it.
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Post by TheWallsScreamedPoetry on Apr 19, 2005 13:32:19 GMT
When he got to Paris where did he have left to go? He was a burnt out rock star who hated what he had become. His career as a singer was pretty much over! His poetry interested a few mates and the offers Hollywood gave him were for pretty Jim not fat bearded Jim. His money was running out. The Doors were yesterdays news and even though LA Woman was selling well thier chances of ever recapturing 1967 were about less than nil as they could not promote the album by touring which back then was the best way to get noticed.. So he could have written a book or maybe a screenplay....maybe directed an independant film probably no one would watch....he was an alcoholic with depression and the heart of a poet writing poetry nobody wanted to read. His heart had not been in The Doors for the past couple of years and he and his spendaholic girlfriend were blowing the advance from the new album on an expensive Euro jaunt. What would 1972 have held for Jim Morrison.....more lawsuits, possible prison sentence, break up of The Doors, fans moving on to something new....gets released, nobody cares, writes poetry gets more depressed buries himself in drink and drugs becomes a recluse and a penniless has been..... It happened to other 60s/70s rock legends so why not Jim.... Of course he could have returned and written something brilliant and made millions and set himself up as a literary great.....who can ever know what would have happened.... But we know what did happen and in the context of Ricks original post at the start of the thread my argument is that none of his fans have a right to take away what he 'earned' through 'death'..... To just willy nilly go back in time and change something without any thought for the consequences is scary.... Everything The Doors are came from ONE pivotal moment in time ....July 3rd 1971. If that had not occured The Doors could may well have become a Caravan, Camel, Jefferson Airplane, T2, Flash or numerous other bands that are of little or no interest to anyone anymore......if that had not happened we would probably have nothing of what we have now.... Jim would be the aforementioned quiz question not the icon he is now. Dying catapulted him from sad burn out to shooting star and The Doors into legend...... You would have to have a hard heart to go back in time and take that from the guy.....
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Post by darkstar on Apr 19, 2005 15:11:54 GMT
My reply is not in response to anyone elses posting. My reply is my input to the topic.
I believe when Jim escaped LA and went to Paris it was for two reasons, the first being to get away from the image he had helped to create and second to distance himself from a possible prison term.
It's been said by some that Jim slowed down on his drinking when he went Paris......I find that hard to believe. I think reality hit him in the face and he had to except the fact that he was alcoholic. All the chemicals in mass quanities had gone through his body at one time or another which may have caused his immune system to partially shut down. Your liver can only filter out so much shit before it starts failing. Like Grace Slick pointed out in the documentary, "The Doors In Europe." Jim probably had ingested a similar quanity of drugs prior to the night of July 2 and nothing had happen previously, but on July 2 the roulette wheel spun around and said not this time. And Jim died like so many other addicts had done before.
As for Jim using heroin.....in his state of mind he was looking to kill thought and this drug was faster and accessible at the time. I'm under the impression Jim was also looking beyond alcohol to quell his addiction to alcohol. Opates such as heroin is a step up from his usual routine and had the ability to knock you out instantly with little consumption compared to alcohol.
Sometimes it's a good reminder to remember Jim was only 27 years old. I can scarely remember what my state of mind was at 27 years old....I had an addiction I remember that, but as far as wanting to stop.......it would take four more years for me to change my lifestyle and no one could talk me out of what I was doing to myself.
People who are not famous experience some of the same self induced challenges in life as celebrities the only difference being that the celebrities end up in the gossip columns and other folks end up in regular newspapers, but even if your rich or poor its equal terms when it comes to an obituary.
I know from experience that an addict will not except help from anyone until the addict wants to confront his addiction and ask for help. Without the addicts cooperation in wanting to help themselves any outside interference would not be fruitful. Considering Jim's stature at the time I don't think anyone could have stopped him from doing what he wanted to do.
Alex I agree with your sentiments pointing out Jim wanting to leave the band in the summer of 1968 after reportedly saying he was having a nervous breakdown. We know how this scenario turned out Ray talked Jim into giving the band another 6 months.....another 6 months paved the way for the fiasco that was Miami. After Miami the band did fall apart from what it once was with band members generally staying away from each other with the exception of the few gigs and contractual obligations to the record company.
Prior to leaving LA Jim did forefill his obligation to the other members of the band and ended his contract with Elektra and in a sense it would seem he felt some kind of relief from the music business. Of course a jail sentence was hanging over his head but he chose to leave the States anyway.
John Densmore speculated in his May 4 1999 statement " I begged Ray for us to get off the road for years, until finally he agreed in New Orleans. Maybe, just maybe, if he'd listened to me, and stopped pushing for MORE, Jim might still be alive." I'm sure John ment well by this quote but it's difficult to say had Jim left the band in 1968 how his life would have turned out. He certainly could not have made a living selling poetry books but then again in 1968 he still had a chance to get his looks back and maybe gain some respect in the motion picture business.
Jim's dead, how did he die? From self indulgance doesn't matter from what substance. The self indulgance came with the lifestyle he chose to live. And let me point out, Ray Manzarek, Robby Krieger and John Densmore did not live the lifestyle Jim Morrison did. They witnessed it yes, but they didn't live it. Manzarek and Krieger both admit that they stayed straight to balance out Jim addictions........(now of course Ray has a different story conjured up in his mind of what went on) By their own admission of staying straight what did that do for Jim's welfare? Not a damn thing. They still urged him on to perform which Jim no longer had the heart to do, but with the help of alcohol and drugs he got by this obligation. It seemed as long as the money was rolling in and the obligations forefilled Jim's welfare wasn't a concern.
Just by reading Manzarek's book LMF you'll see that the chapter titled, "Miami" begins on page 310.....you only have 42 pages until the end of the book. What happened to Manzarek's recollections from Miami - March 1969 to Paris, France 1971? What kind of relationship did Jim's self appointed best friend and himself have at this period in time? Was it Manzarek's intentions of helping Jim out after the Miami fisaco and if so why didn't Manzarek include his good intentions in his biography?....oh yes, how incorrect of me....Manzarek claims he's working on Volume 2 so hopefully the answer will be in there.
I'm of the opinion based on the information I have read Jim died in the bathtub because he was put there in an attempt to revive him from an overdose and instead he died.
I don't believe anyone could have stopped Jim from doing what he wanted to do, when he wanted to do it......only when Jim decided he wanted help from his addictions would he have made an attempt to change his lifestyle. Even if Jim wanted to change his lifestyle theres still the question of what damage had been done that could or would have sent him to an early grave no matter what kind of intervention was available.
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Post by jym on Apr 19, 2005 16:25:57 GMT
The one big impediment to saving Jim Morrison was JIM MORRISON! He certainly knew what he was he doing & certainly could have avoided that fate, but he courted and pursued it. what could you do to that would impress him to stop or save himself? Tell him he's going to die young but be remembered as a legend? That's what he wanted!
Like in the conclusion of the novel Glimpses, the hero keeps trying to save Hendrix, but he can't no matter what he does, for every action there's a reaction, you may know what to do if you were in that situation but usually people don't account for the reactions of others in the scene.
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Post by ensenada on Apr 19, 2005 17:51:14 GMT
alex has that effect on a lot of people ...... including this guy...............!
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Post by stuart on Apr 19, 2005 18:01:42 GMT
Jim Lives on Through his Poems and Songs
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